Thanks for the education Sir. I love to learn stuff.Originally Posted by Sputnik
Thanks for the education Sir. I love to learn stuff.
Obviously none of the posters here own a real Mellotron, otherwise they would not be spewing such drivel.
Try buying a real Tron compared to a fake one. Try selling a fake compared to a real one. You won't get the same price that's for sure.
The fakes or forged go for pennies compared to the real ones. Why? Because they are not really Mellotrons! FAKE!
Try trip-trapping over your bridge with a real Tron......
"I love your music! How much did you pay for your keyboards?"
"Around $500"
"Oh. Nevermind. Your music sucks."
Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally
I would think that Skullhead wouldn't even like a *real* Mellotron because, you know,
you aren't playing *real* violins, cellos, flutes, etc.
Last edited by Gravedigger; 04-19-2017 at 10:41 PM.
I paid $130 for my "Mellotron" - which is an old, beat-up Ensoniq Mirage, with the string sample disc just left in the drive so it always boots up on that sound. Does it sound like a real 'Tron? Not exactly. But it has a hoarse, scratchy sound from being only an 8-bit sample, it can't be played fast without sounding like mush, and it doesn't resemble real strings so much as a worn-out record of them. In other words, it has the effect of a Mellotron, and I can use it like one. And since hardly anyone has used that specific sound for about thirty years, it's distinctive and even original.
Excellent point.
A lot of great bands have gone the extra mile and played with a symphony. Of course it is better.
From Deep Purple to Metallica. Yes, Genesis, Zappa etc. It's the right thing to do if want to truly do something great..
and that is what Progressive Rock should be doing. Strive for higher ideals.
Now if you prefer to buy your Tron samples and post them up on your Youtube or Spotify site, that's good for you to secure
your 150 views and to impress your Facebook friends. But it "is what it is" and you "are what you are".
Not necessarily. Part of the point of much symph-prog is four or five people trying to sound like on orchestra. Bring in a real orchestra and you lose that quality. How well it works also depends on the skill of the orchestrator, and how well he understands the music and what makes it work. And, for that matter, whether the music itself benefits from that approach - some music doesn't, and just sounds overstuffed.
Also, a Tron is often its own thing. It isn't necessarily a replacement for an orchestra, any more than a Hammond is for a pipe organ, a Rhodes is for a grand piano, or a Moog is for a woodwind or brass player. Its peculiar lo-fi wrongness has a quality of its own, like an overdriven amp, that may fit some music perfectly when an orchestra wouldn't.
Again, not necessarily. Something relatively small and unpretentious done really well and creatively is, in my mind, "greater" than something big, overblown, and hackneyed. Gentle Giant never wrote one epic, but I'd put the quality of their music up against any of the more ambitious prog bands, and above many of them. Henry Cow used a Farfisa DuoCompact combo organ because they couldn't afford a Hammond, made that cheesy organ sound fantastic and inevitable and perfect for their music, wrote some of the best compositions in the whole prog canon, and did avant-improvs that got the respect of the jazz crowd. Bigness isn't everything.
Last edited by Baribrotzer; 04-20-2017 at 12:09 AM.
The Metallica orchestra thing was a dud, though. Ir emember seeing it on VH-1 when it first came out, they had strings do all this meandering dren on top of the original song arrangements.
When did Genesis use an orchestra? I know there's that one live version of Your Own Special Way with the strings on it, which I believe I read was done to appease some sort of musicians union mandate. But I can't think of anything else. I know there was an album done in the early 90's by someone else, where they arranged a bunch of Genesis songs for orchestra and had Steve Hackett play on it, but that wasn't Genesis themselves.
Yes made good use of an orchestra on Time And A Word, though a lot of that was simply assigning the parts Tony Kaye and Peter Banks were playing to the orchestra and then mixing the two out. If you check out the Beat Club clip of No Opportunity Necessary ("Or whatever it's called", as Bill Bruford called it once), you'll hear the two of them playing all the hijacked film music stuff, which is being played by the strings and brass on the record.
The Deep Purple thing was just ok, at least the version they did in 2000 or whenever it was, just before Jon Lord retired from the band, was just ok. As I recall it was a bunch of orchestral bits alternating with a bunch of band bits. Kinda struck me as a bit boring, really.
Zappa was a bit different from those others, except maybe the Deep Purple thing. For he one he was more of a "serious" composer than anyone in any of those other bands, and I think he was less concerned with "progressive rock" or creating some kind rock/classical merger, so much as composing "serious" music in the same vein as Boulez or Stockhausen or Ligeti or Lutoslawski.
For me, though, the best use of orchestras in rock music has been more as a "sweetener", as it were, to enhance the ambience of the music. Some of the songs on The Wall, particularly Comfortably Numb and Nobody Home, I think are good examples. Another one is You See Me Crying by Aerosmith. The strings on Scandinavian Skies by Billy Joel is another one where it works really well.
A very good point. I remember Steve Howe saying he was upset about how the orchestral record they did about 15 years ago...dammit, the name escapes me at the moment, because apparently whoever did the orchestral arrangements didn't take care to put the orchestra around the existing instrumental parts (ie the stuff he, Squire, and White had already put down on tape). And when something in the orchestral arrangement conflicted with say, the guitar parts or whatever, they'd simply mix out the guitar.Bring in a real orchestra and you lose that quality. How well it works also depends on the skill of the orchestrator, and how well he understands the music and what makes it work. And, for that matter, whether the music itself benefits from that approach - some music doesn't, and just sounds overstuffed.
And yes, a lot of times in "progressive rock" there's so much going on that adding anything on top of that, be it a full orchestra, or just strings or a horn section, there'd be too much going on, unless great care was taken by all involved to go the "less is more" route in places where the orchestra is going to be.
That's why I tend to think the Billy Joel, Aerosmith and Pink Floyd things I mentioned worked as well as they did, because you had musicians leaving a lot of space in the arrangements so that there's room for the orchestra to fit in.
Oh and the thing about an orchestra is, it's also very expensive. You have to hire someone to do the arrangements, then you have to rehearse the orchestra, then you have to record. All of that costs big money that most bands don't have. That's why things like the Chamberlin, the Mellotron, the Vako Orchestron, or the assorted digital samplers (from the Fairlight onwards) were always so popular: they gave musicians who didn't have the budget to bring in the London Philharmonic or whatever to add a bit of that sound to their music.
My point really is that a Mellotron is what it is, and it has it's character and should not be EVER confused with some ridiculous digital pretend version.
FAKE Mellotron.
Is a digital Hammond Organ a Hammond? NO!!!!!!
Is a digital Steinway a real Steinway? NO!!!!!!
It's PRETEND!!
The kid on SNL DID NOT play a Mellotron! Saying he did is as silly as saying a plastic gold coin from a gumball machine is real gold just because
it's printed on the wrapper.
Samples are convenient, but convenient is not what great music is all about.
Just hang on to that laptop there, and everything will still be alright at the end of the day. But is it REAL communication - for REAL?!!
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
Orchestra is so symph weenie!!
And generally, it is NOT put to good use inside prog
I'm glad the Moodies only did one symph orch album... Purple sucks when using an orchestra (April was not a full orchestra), Tull started downhill when Dee Palmer's orchestrations were used and abused ... And Procol's Symphonic Orchestra album (Something Magic was totally laughable).... Not to mention Wakeman's Journey or King Arthur.
We see where you're heading, but carrying around an old 'tron is nowadays such a pain in the arse, for heaviness and tunning reasons (I heard even Anglagard isn't anymore, and they had three). Remember that trons were a failed instruments (in its intent) and was plagued ith many flaws (including overheating)
I'ver no real problem (yeah, sure I'd like to see/hear the vintage thing) seeing modern Hammond or Tron, because they're really made by the historical manufacturer, not by Korg or Roland. Modern Hammond and 'tron are there for logistic reasons , rather than pretending reasons, just like others find it a little unrealistic lugging a whole orchestra and resort to synths to simulate things as well
But if I was to follow your pretend theory, then a Hammond is a pretend church organ and a Rhodes is a pretend grand piano electrically amplified
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
it's untrue .. The original manufacturer is streetly electronics they don't have the right to use the name "mellotron" on their all analog instrument anymore ( M4000...) . streetly electronic was force into liquidation back in the 1986 . the word "mellotron " become more on the marketing side . so there is no "real" difference between this digital mellotron and good old sample ( like the pinder ones ..) on any sampler player ( akai , korg , roland or even NORD/Clavia ) . The only difference is the label 'MELLOTRON' on a white instrument . so yes it pretend but it's not the real thing that's all . after that, who cares ? if the sound is good that's all that matters.
Last edited by Gorillclub; 04-20-2017 at 05:55 AM.
thx for the clarification...
TBH, that's the first time I'd seen a "modern 'tron"...
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.
I can picture you stamping up and a down to emphasize every word in all caps and the excessive exclamation points. At the end of this charming display of "self-control" <sarcasm>, you hold your breath, your cheeks all puffed out and your eyes clamped shut in defiance.
Interesting.
Somehow reminds me of Alec Baldwin, but I can't quite remember in what role, although it was really recent.
Nah, Skullwin is much better looking than Alec Baldhead.
"Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
"[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM
Did too.
Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally
I'm thinking more of this:
Priceless.
And obviously you know nothing about the M4000D. The samples are taken from the original Streetly tapes not replicas. The craftsmanship is second to none made with real wood, including the keys. These are boutique instruments, not your average run of the mill plastic synth. The company which makes the digital Mellotron also makes "real" trons with moving parts.
As a proud owner of an M4000D & have played an original I can say that if you heard these in a blind test you would not be able to discern between the two under neutral conditions.
As far as your comment about the so called "fakes" going for pennies compared to "real" ones... I suppose you're right if you consider almost a $3K price tag for a digital, cheap. But you can make the same argument for any vintage synth compared to the newer releases... just look at the cost of a Moog Voyager compared to a 70s Model D. Also, I can sell my Digitron, 1 1/2 years out, for at least the same price as what I paid for it. Compare that to the depreciation of my Kronos to what I originally paid for it new.
Ya know why people like Skullhead are around, dontcha? So that I'll be reminded what I sound like when I fly off the handle, so I can keep that in my mind when I feel like posting something stupid, I can say 'Wait a minute, will this make me sound like Skullhead or one of those other guys everyone makes fun of?". I mean, you really have to evaluate these things, before going forward. I mean, I don't always come up with the right answer, but even still, sometimes one does reconsider some of the things one posts under such circumstances.
Edit: almost forgot:
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