Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 29

Thread: Patton Howlin Beefheart

  1. #1

    Patton Howlin Beefheart

    By going through Stefan Grossman related websites I came upon this site where Grossman presents short audio features of famous Bluesmen. I am a big fan of Delta Blues and I started with Charley Patton. So Grossman started with Patton's famous 'Spoonfull' Blues and spoke then about the relation with Howlin Wolf , who had listened to Patton as a teenager. And when he played Wolf's version of Spoonfull I was baffled too which extent Beefheart had "adapted" Wolfs howlin'/singin' style. Grossman played then the more obvious version of the Cream.






    Last edited by alucard; 04-04-2017 at 05:20 AM.
    Dieter Moebius : "Art people like things they don’t understand!"

  2. #2
    ^If you listen to a bonafide blues track like "China Pig", the Wolf vocalization becomes rather overwhelmingly enacted. Yet the Captain was sincerely outspoken about this. And then there's the sometimes wacky/weirdo vox which Beefheart applied and which didn't really have much presedence to show for.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    ^If you listen to a bonafide blues track like "China Pig", the Wolf vocalization becomes rather overwhelmingly enacted. Yet the Captain was sincerely outspoken about this. And then there's the sometimes wacky/weirdo vox which Beefheart applied and which didn't really have much presedence to show for.
    One must admit that they have a close vocal range, Geddy Lee would have more trouble sounding like Howlin Wolf
    Dieter Moebius : "Art people like things they don’t understand!"

  4. #4
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Fluffy Cloud
    Posts
    5,635
    "Taking da blooz to it's illogical conclusion...."

    [this is very interesting, btw, especially for Beefheart dis-beleivers]

    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  5. #5
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Fluffy Cloud
    Posts
    5,635
    Quote Originally Posted by alucard View Post
    One must admit that they have a close vocal range, Geddy Lee would have more trouble sounding like Howlin Wolf
    Don went out of his way to emulate Howlin' Wolf. There's no doubt about that. Did a good job of it too!
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  6. #6
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Fluffy Cloud
    Posts
    5,635
    Quote Originally Posted by alucard View Post
    and spoke then about the relation with Howlin Wolf , who had listened to Patton as a teenager.
    Remember, though, that "Spoonful" was actually written by Willie Dixon!
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by alucard View Post
    One must admit that they have a close vocal range, Geddy Lee would have more trouble sounding like Howlin Wolf


    As for Beefheart's wackyvox, there were always cats like David Thomas (Pere Ubu) and Bruce Hampton (HGB) to channel it further. I wish Yes would attempt something similar; it'd be so new and exciting!
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  8. #8
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    7,765
    Beefheart's earlier stuff, the Strictly Personal sessions, Mirror Man and I May Be Hungry, are more overtly blues. By the time of Trout Mask he was subverting his influences -- although the roots still show through.

    As much as I love TMR I may be even fonder of Don's take on the Delta blues.
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 04-04-2017 at 07:59 AM.

  9. #9
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    7,765
    Of course no mention of the Delta Blues is complete without Robert Johnson.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Remember, though, that "Spoonful" was actually written by Willie Dixon!
    It was , but....

    "Dixon's "Spoonful" is loosely based on "A Spoonful Blues", a song recorded in 1929 by Charley Patton (Paramount 12869),[2] which is related to "All I Want Is a Spoonful" by Papa Charlie Jackson (1925) and "Cocaine Blues" by Luke Jordan (1927). The lyrics relate men's sometimes violent search to satisfy their cravings, with "a spoonful" used mostly as a metaphor for pleasures, which have been interpreted as sex, love, women and men naked and drugs.[3]

    It could be a spoonful of coffee, it could be a spoonful of tea
    But one little spoon of your precious love, is good enough for me
    Men lies about that spoonful, some of them dies about that spoonful
    Some of them cries about that spoonful, but everybody fight about that spoonful


    ....BTW there is also 'Coffee Blues' by Mississippi John Hurt , which has the line "I got a lovin' spoonful" in it.


    Which reminds me that the first time I ever went to Rome in the 70's all tea spoons in the Coffee houses had a hole drilled in the middle and in the beginnig I didn't got it and then in a park I saw all these used needles and I understood that the owners of the coffee houses didn't want people to use their spoons in the toilet etc
    Last edited by alucard; 04-04-2017 at 09:30 AM.
    Dieter Moebius : "Art people like things they don’t understand!"

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Of course no mention of the Delta Blues is complete without Robert Johnson.
    Funny I listened to two other Grossman features one about Skip James , where he demonstrates how Robert Johnson borrowed some tricks of the trade from Skip James, who surely borrowed from someone who never even recorded etc. Grossman tells how went to see back then Alexis Korner , who had a 78 copy of Skip James 'I am so glad' just to understand by listening to the record how he played it. (apparently in open E) This series is really good

    http://fingerstyleblues.com/stefan-g...ar-radio-show/
    Last edited by alucard; 04-04-2017 at 09:17 AM.
    Dieter Moebius : "Art people like things they don’t understand!"

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,485
    I always thought Safe As Milk and Strictly Personal are (mostly) slightly skewed blues-rock albums. The latter most explicitly with its direct reference to Son House (a song of his best known as 'Death Letter Blues') in 'Ah Feel Like Ahcid'.

    Credits on blues songs are always somewhat difficult to ascertain. You hear the same lyrical/musical tropes on recordings going back to the 20s/30s.

    I wonder if Skip James lived long enough to reap the rewards from Cream's cover of 'I'm So Glad'. He was certainly credited (and Willie Dixon was credited for 'Spoonful' on that album).

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    I always thought Safe As Milk and Strictly Personal are (mostly) slightly skewed blues-rock albums. The latter most explicitly with its direct reference to Son House (a song of his best known as 'Death Letter Blues') in 'Ah Feel Like Ahcid'.

    Credits on blues songs are always somewhat difficult to ascertain. You hear the same lyrical/musical tropes on recordings going back to the 20s/30s.

    I wonder if Skip James lived long enough to reap the rewards from Cream's cover of 'I'm So Glad'. He was certainly credited (and Willie Dixon was credited for 'Spoonful' on that album).
    Actually yes, Skip James got 6000 dollars on royalties from the Cream record , which allowed to pay for the hospital bill and his funeral.

    What is sad that the major part of the early (recording )blues musicians were completely forgotten during the 40's and 50's and its mainly thanx to people like Harry Smith ( the great Anthology Of American Folk Music in 1952) or in the beginning of the 60's John Fahey, Henry Vestine that they got the chance to be reknown and sometimes record again.
    I think it was John Fahey who found the trace of Mississipi John Hurt, because of the song Avalon Blues. He went down to Avalon and asked for him and he was not a musician anymore , but someone knew where he lived and he recorded again and gave concerts.
    Last edited by alucard; 04-04-2017 at 10:29 AM.
    Dieter Moebius : "Art people like things they don’t understand!"

  14. #14
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Fluffy Cloud
    Posts
    5,635
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    I wonder if Skip James lived long enough to reap the rewards from Cream's cover of 'I'm So Glad'. He was certainly credited (and Willie Dixon was credited for 'Spoonful' on that album).
    I believe it is well documented that the songwriting credits and payments from Cream's cover of 'I'm So Glad' helped to take care of Skip in his final days and to help pay for his hospital bills and etc.

    Willie also made a good chunk of money from the covers.

    Unlike, say, the evil Led Zep who purposely stole songs to deny the songwriters the money they would have had to pay; "SAD!", he tweeted.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    "Taking da blooz to it's illogical conclusion...."

    [this is very interesting, btw, especially for Beefheart dis-beleivers]

    Interesting document, gives another look on the Baroque Trio Sonata and red ties. :-)
    btw for the story about the cardboard on the drums I think he is mistaken. From memory it was not about the neighbors but an idea of Beefheart and Zappa said to him that it would sound claustrophobic without the high end of the cymbals , but Beefheart insisted, but I don't remember why he wanted to have the cardboards on the drumset.
    Dieter Moebius : "Art people like things they don’t understand!"

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,485
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    I believe it is well documented that the songwriting credits and payments from Cream's cover of 'I'm So Glad' helped to take care of Skip in his final days and to help pay for his hospital bills and etc.

    Willie also made a good chunk of money from the covers.

    Unlike, say, the evil Led Zep who purposely stole songs to deny the songwriters the money they would have had to pay; "SAD!", he tweeted.
    Cream/Clapton were pretty good with the credits. 'Outside Woman Blues' was a pretty obscure one to do and that was also correctly attributed.

    With Zeppelin, the 'Whole Lotta Love'/'Bring It On Home'/'The Lemon Song' examples (all three later had to include the correct credits) were very misguided on their part. Stupider still, they'd already credited Dixon anyway on 'You Shook Me' AND 'I Can't Quit You Baby' from their first album! It's a small part of their output overall but it's an unfortunate chapter.

    Quote Originally Posted by alucard View Post
    What is sad that the major part of the early (recording )blues musicians were completely forgotten during the 40's and 50's and its mainly thanx to people like Harry Smith ( the great Anthology Of American Folk Music in 1952) or in the beginning of the 60's John Fahey, Henry Vestine that they got the chance to be reknown and sometimes record again.
    There was something similar going on in the UK but more for the electric/Chicago sound- most of the big names came over to play live here in the 60s/70s. Things like 'Smokestack Lightnin' and 'Dimples' were hitting the UK pop charts!

    Muddy Waters famously came over to the UK doing his electric thing and was poorly received at the time by a largely folk-based audience. He later came back with an acoustic show and by then a new audience had emerged that wanted him to do the electric material.
    Last edited by JJ88; 04-04-2017 at 11:03 AM.

  17. #17
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Fluffy Cloud
    Posts
    5,635
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    With Zeppelin, the 'Whole Lotta Love'/'Bring It On Home'/'The Lemon Song' examples (all three later had to include the correct credits) were very misguided on their part. Stupider still, they'd already credited Dixon anyway on 'You Shook Me' AND 'I Can't Quit You Baby' from their first album! It's a small part of their output overall but it's an unfortunate chapter..
    That's ok. Willie Dixon ended up ok. You know that story about Willie being interviewed in the last few years of his life about the Led Zep suit?
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  18. #18
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    7,765
    Quote Originally Posted by alucard View Post
    What is sad that the major part of the early (recording )blues musicians were completely forgotten during the 40's and 50's and its mainly thanx to people like Harry Smith ( the great Anthology Of American Folk Music in 1952)
    Don't forget John Lomax's invaluable efforts to document folk and blues music in the 1930s and '40s.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    That's ok. Willie Dixon ended up ok. You know that story about Willie being interviewed in the last few years of his life about the Led Zep suit?
    I haven't! What did he say?

    re: Skip James, I thought I read once that he hated what Cream did to I'm So Glad (one imagines he probably didn't think any better of Deep Purple's version), but as you say, you did receive royalties from those recordings, so that probably made him feel a little better.

    This reminds me of the story of how Bobby Womack had reservations about The Rolling Stones It's All Over Now. He said he wasn't sure he wanted Mick Jagger singing one of his songs, but after the first royalty check arrived following the release of The Stones version, he said "Mick Jagger can sing any of my songs he wants to".

    And talking about Zeppelin, as I recall, they also lifted a chunk of The Hunter by Albert King, and used in one of their other songs, I forget which one. I think they got into trouble over that too.

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,485
    'How Many More Times', which also has 'Kisses Sweeter Than Wine' in the middle.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    I always thought Safe As Milk and Strictly Personal are (mostly) slightly skewed blues-rock albums. The latter most explicitly with its direct reference to Son House (a song of his best known as 'Death Letter Blues') in 'Ah Feel Like Ahcid'.
    With the SAM album I agree, but not really with SP; to me, this is where he really takes off.

    Interestingly, there's a parallel to Magma in that they are often said to not truly "take off" until MDK, while I always heard things happening big time already on their previous (2nd.) release. And with Beefheart, Strictly Personal offers something bizarrely singular in its twisted avant-bluesrock theme, as in "Trust Us" or the inimitable "Kandy Korn", whose cascadian final section represents some of the earliest actual noise rock beginnings. Although I can understand the reservations some may still have towards the phasing effects and lacklustre efforts at "psyching" up production, but in retrospect there are some absolutely captivating passages on that record.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  22. #22
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Fluffy Cloud
    Posts
    5,635
    re: Willie Dixon
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    I haven't! What did he say?
    I saw a tv show a long while ago. I don't remember anything else about it except for the story below.

    They were interviewing Willie. He was fairly older looking by that point (he died in 1992 at 77), so I would guess this was in the mid 80s. But that's a guess.

    Willie was sitting in a rocking chair and being interviewed.

    At one point the interviewer says, "Willie, we would like to speak with you about the Led Zeppelin suit."

    He says, "Well, sorry fellers, but part of the settlement was that I agreed not to discuss it"

    And he is asked, "Well, Willie, can you at least say if you are satisfied about how it all ended?"

    And he leaned back in his rocking chair and he said, "Oh, yes! I'm MIGHTY satisfied!"
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Don't forget John Lomax's invaluable efforts to document folk and blues music in the 1930s and '40s.
    Wasn't it Lomax who created 'Folkways ' records ?
    Dieter Moebius : "Art people like things they don’t understand!"

  24. #24
    Having discovered Blues in the 70's through the British Blues Rock, I go nowadays more and more back to the more rootsy recordings, which are soundwise not the best, but what they lack in recording quality they have more "soul".The Anthology Of American Folk Music has become one of my favorite compilations and you can really hear where artists like Dylan , Seeger , Renborn , Jansch and others came from. What I discovered recently also was that a lot of older British Folk songs were in the 19 th century already forgotten in England while they were often played in the Appalachian mountains and came back over the Atlantic a century later with this detour.
    Dieter Moebius : "Art people like things they don’t understand!"

  25. #25
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Utopia
    Posts
    5,390
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Don went out of his way to emulate Howlin' Wolf. There's no doubt about that. Did a good job of it too!
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Remember, though, that "Spoonful" was actually written by Willie Dixon!
    "Spoonful" was on one of the first albums I ever owned: Best of Cream. I also became a big Beefheart fan quite early in my musical explorations, starting with Lick My Decals Off Baby, which was his new one at the time. But, fool that I was, it wasn't until years later that I actually bought a Howlin' Wolf album--the French double LP with the airplane cover--and heard the real thing in all its glory. The epic combination of that primal proto-Beefheartian bellow and that most bad-ass song used to make me roll around in glee.
    Hurtleturtled Out of Heaven - an electronic music composition, on CD and vinyl
    https://michaelpdawson.bandcamp.com
    http://www.waysidemusic.com/Music-Pr...MCD-spc-7.aspx

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •