Comparison: Gimour & Howe

[Rickenbacker]

A buddy of mine asked me the other day who my top 5 favorite guitarists are. (always tough to narrow those lists down) I mentioned the question to my g/f & she volunteered that I *better* include David Gilmour. She's a huge PF fan. (I didn't) I told her that David, although he's phenomenal, I thought soloing is where he truly shines. He'd make my top 10 or 15. But I thought that Steve Howe was the more well-rounded, more versatile player who has that edge of virtuosity that (I feel) David doesn't quite have.

(yes, I know you can like both. This is simply in the spirit of fun & discussion)

[moecurlythanu]

Burp!

[rcarlberg]

Which is better, apples or oranges? The question is meaningless. I'm sure David plays Pink Floyd songs better than Steve, and Steve plays Yes songs better than Dave.

[Rickenbacker]

Which is better, apples or oranges? The question is meaningless. I'm sure David plays Pink Floyd songs better than Steve, and Steve plays Yes songs better than Dave.

Its plenty meaningful. It's in the spirit of fun/discussion.

[rcarlberg]

Besides, I'm not even sure who Gimour is.

Listen, some artists can play anything -- Steve Morse for one. Others can only play their own stuff and are worthless trying to play anything they haven't written. Both Steve and Dave have played other peoples' songs in concert, so it's probably not an issue for either of them.

On a related note, I was fascinated watching Mike Ratledge play Tubular Bells:

[klothos]

Note-value wise (the phrasing), many of Gilmour's solos are easy to play....What makes them difficult is trying to capture his feel which eludes many players...That Gilmour feel is what makes him a great player and enable him to do more with one note than other players can do with 72

[GuitarGeek]

Listen, some artists can play anything -- Steve Morse for one.

Depends on what you mean by "play anything". I remember Henry Kaiser talking about the issue of "sloppy" guitar playing in an interview in Guitar Player. He made the point that "sloppy" playing can be just as much of an artistic choice as "accurate" playing, and a "truly complete" guitarist would be capable of doing both. And in fact, he used Steve Morse as an example of a guitarist who probably couldn't play a sloppy note if his life depend on it, and therefore concluded that Morse wasn't a "complete" guitarist. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I love Steve's playing myself.

But I think Kaiser makes a good point, though. Morse would be useless in, say, a Rolling Stones tribute band, or any other arena where the supposed sloppiness is part of the sound. On the other hand, Morse is probably capable of playing with just about any competent set of musicians you put him together with. Check out the version of Gimme Back My Bullets on Lynyrd Skynyrd's Southern By The Grace Of God live album.

As for Gilmour and Howe, how often are they called upoon to play "other people's music"? Presumably, any time we've heard them outside of their usual contexts, it's because someone wanted "that sound" for a session. For instance, on the Bryan Ferry and Kate Bush records Gilmour played on, when the guitar solo comes up, you know immediately you're hearing David Gilmour.

I think Gilmour's also done his share of backing gigs, eg playing with Pete Townshend's Deep End band in the mid 80's, performing with Tom Jones on TV, etc. But there again, I don't think he was typically doing anything that any competent guitarist couldn't do (except of course, when it was time for a guitar solo, and then there again, there's the reason why he in particular got the call in the first place).

On the other hand, I don't think I've heard Gilmour play jazz music or straight out classical or flamenco type acoustic. He even admitted they had to use a session guy on Is There Anybody Out There? because he couldn't fingerpick the nylon guitar part. He said he practiced enough to the point where he could it for the live shows, but at the time they were recording The Wall, he could only do it wiht a leather pick (do such things really exist), and he felt it should be done "authentically", ie fingerstyle, so they got a session rat in.

Howe, on the other hand, again, I know he's done sessions here and there, but it seems to me that he has a less adaptable approach to guitar. Maybe when you need a good faux classical guitar thing, or if you want that style of electric guitar playing, and your producer just happens to have Steve's number, he might be the guy to call. But I don't see him being able to back someone like Tom Jones or Kate Bush as effectively as Gilmour did. I also don't see Howe playing a straight blues solo either (remember, we're talking about a guy who deliberately avoided any and all blues influences). And I certainly can't imagine either Gilmour or Howe playing in, say, a funk or reggae band. I could maybe see either of them playing country music, since both of them have steel experience, and Howe could probably do the Bakersfield style Telecaster guitar thing (think James Burton or Roy Nichols).

Then again, either one of those guys could surprise us if they were dropped into a circumstance we don't associate them with. Gilmour just might be able to work his way through Stella By Starlight, and Howe wail on Born Under A Bad Sign than any of would expect. (shrug)

[rcarlberg]

Well said, thanks.

[Scrotum Scissor]

1) I remember Henry Kaiser talking about the issue of "sloppy" guitar playing in an interview in Guitar Player. He made the point that "sloppy" playing can be just as much of an artistic choice as "accurate" playing, and a "truly complete" guitarist would be capable of doing both. And in fact, he used Steve Morse as an example of a guitarist who probably couldn't play a sloppy note if his life depend on it, and therefore concluded that Morse wasn't a "complete" guitarist. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I love Steve's playing myself.

But I think Kaiser makes a good point, though. Morse would be useless in, say, a Rolling Stones tribute band, or any other arena where the supposed sloppiness is part of the sound.

2) Howe, on the other hand, again, I know he's done sessions here and there, but it seems to me that he has a less adaptable approach to guitar. Maybe when you need a good faux classical guitar thing, or if you want that style of electric guitar playing, and your producer just happens to have Steve's number, he might be the guy to call. But I don't see him being able to back someone like Tom Jones or Kate Bush as effectively as Gilmour did. I also don't see Howe playing a straight blues solo either

1) Kaiser is almost as brilliant a theoretic as he's an instrumentalist, and I've heard him say similar things elsewhere - raving about axemen like Richard Thompson and Glenn Phillips and, IIRC, names like David Torn and Terje Rypdal (all of whom would arguably fit his "doublevision" of completeness more accurately), and while I personally agree with his opinion I'd like to hear more about his thoughts on how the impulse of taste comes into play even here.

2) Howe and Gilmour are both perfectionists of personal style rather than of obvious technique. While I concur with you about the immediacy of recognition on hearing Gilmour in whatever context, Howe brings pretty much the same effect to his contributions. Such as here, a slice of slick yet cerebral and galant Europop of the dreaded 80s:

[Chain]

Note-value wise (the phrasing), many of Gilmour's solos are easy to play....What makes them difficult is trying to capture his feel which eludes many players...That Gilmour feel is what makes him a great player and enable him to do more with one note than other players can do with 72

This

[Trane]

Absolutely no doubt that all four Yes instrumentalists were way better at their craft than the Floyd ones, but I'll prefer systematically all the Floyd over the Yesmen


(well maybe Broof might make me lie on this issue, but it won't be a White lie )

[JKL2000]

Personally, while I love both Floyd and Yes, I notice Gilmour's solos much more than anything Howe does. For me, Gilmour is the star of Floyd, but Howe isn't the star of Yes for me -- I guess I'd say Yes is more a sum of its parts than Floyd is. Also, Yes had more vituoso players. I do love Rick Wright's contributions of course.

[alucard]

Which is better, apples or oranges? The question is meaningless. I'm sure David plays Pink Floyd songs better than Steve, and Steve plays Yes songs better than Dave.

Apples in a mile, I was never a fan of oranges, neither the fruit nor the juice , highly overrated fruit and too much acide, not good at all for the health. A point where you see that clever marketing and a good packaging do the job.
I prefer The taste of a good apple any time!!!

[Trane]

I guess I'd say Yes is more a sum of its parts than Floyd is.

IMHO, Floyd is like The Beatles... it's more than just the sum of its individual part... There was a soul in there

Wish I could say the same for Yes ... As they've proven over the decades, any member is interchangeable and it remains Yes... (even now without Squire)

remove Waters or Gilmour (or even Wright & Mason) from Floyd, it's not Floyd anymore as AMLOR (or to a lesser extent the Wright-less TFC) as shown us.

[Jubal]

Note-value wise (the phrasing), many of Gilmour's solos are easy to play....What makes them difficult is trying to capture his feel which eludes many players...That Gilmour feel is what makes him a great player and enable him to do more with one note than other players can do with 72

Try playing the first solo from Another Brick In The Wall Part 2. Some of those bends are pretty rough, and the down bends (bending the string before picking, then unbending) are pretty tricky. Some of his runs are deceptively fast as well.

[klothos]

Try playing the first solo from Another Brick In The Wall Part 2. Some of those bends are pretty rough, and the down bends (bending the string before picking, then unbending) are pretty tricky. Some of his runs are deceptively fast as well.

yes....thats why i said 'many' and not 'all'

[rcarlberg]

Dave's the opposite of a shredder. Every note counts.

Floyd in general was not a flash band, they didn't play music designed to show off their technical virtuosity. The same could not always be said about the various Yeses.

[2steves]

One plays blues and the other doesn't so hard to compare---apples and oranges.

[JKL2000]

One plays blues and the other doesn't so hard to compare---apples and oranges.

Raisins and watermelons

[rcarlberg]

A nice pair

[GuitarGeek]

apples and oranges.

or chalk and cheese, as they say in the UK.

[JKL2000]

or chalk and cheese, as they say in the UK.

That makes more sense!

[Trane]

or chalk and cheese, as they say in the UK.

their cheese is chalky, though

[simon moon]

Sorry, but for me, Gilmour is not even in the same league as Howe. But then, I've never been a PF fan, or a blues fan, at all.

Now, this David Gilmore is another story!

[mozo-pg]

They are both pretty good.