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Thread: Discipline - Captives Of The Wine Dark Sea (new album in June)

  1. #51
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    Now I'm psyched. Love the new song.
    The Prog Corner

  2. #52
    Geriatric Anomaly progeezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gryphs also View Post
    In the new song, Parmenter's voice sounds even more Hammill-ish in tone and cadence. That may be a little off putting for some (Geezer), but that adds a greater dimension to me.
    I have no problem at all with this song, Tony, but I don't think I can verbalize well enough (and I'm pretty f*****g verbose) why it is that MP's vox appeal to me and PH's just don't. 'Tis what 'tis.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by progeezer View Post
    I have no problem at all with this song, Tony, but I don't think I can verbalize well enough (and I'm pretty f*****g verbose) why it is that MP's vox appeal to me and PH's just don't. 'Tis what 'tis.
    It's because you can sing. So you recognize Hamill as someone who never completely learned to control his pitch or temper his expressiveness, who believes those elements of basic musical craft don't matter. And you recognize Parmenter as someone who did, who may have a strong Hamill influence but has too much craftsmanship to not quite hit notes or go as far over the top in his performances.

  4. #54
    Geriatric Anomaly progeezer's Avatar
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    Thank you John! That makes infinite sense to me.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard View Post
    Just came across this video for one of the new songs. I do believe they played this tune at ProgDay '16.

    Cool song, but hooo-BOY are the Hammill influences showing!
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    It's because you can sing. So you recognize Hamill as someone who never completely learned to control his pitch or temper his expressiveness, who believes those elements of basic musical craft don't matter. And you recognize Parmenter as someone who did, who may have a strong Hamill influence but has too much craftsmanship to not quite hit notes or go as far over the top in his performances.
    Very interesting perspective! Never thought about it that way myself, but I'm inclined to agree.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by progeezer View Post
    I have no problem at all with this song, Tony, but I don't think I can verbalize well enough (and I'm pretty f*****g verbose) why it is that MP's vox appeal to me and PH's just don't. 'Tis what 'tis.
    I am in the same boat. PH / VDGG has never done a lot for me while I pretty much love everything Discipline does. Can't explain it.....

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard View Post
    Just came across this video for one of the new songs. I do believe they played this tune at ProgDay '16.

    Yeah, I think you're right. It definitely sounds like the same new song they played last year.

    I like it.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveSly View Post
    PH / VDGG has never done a lot for me while I pretty much love everything Discipline does. Can't explain it...
    I think the parallell is mostly on Parmenter/Hammill, not so much in arrangements or structural dispositions, harmonics etc. There's the very odd reminiscence at times, but in the end Discipline allude more to "prog as known" than do VdGG, who were essentially quite experimental and idiosyncratic.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    It's because you can sing. So you recognize Hamill as someone who never completely learned to control his pitch or temper his expressiveness, who believes those elements of basic musical craft don't matter. And you recognize Parmenter as someone who did, who may have a strong Hamill influence but has too much craftsmanship to not quite hit notes or go as far over the top in his performances.
    a) Talk about the ultimate of prog snobbery.

    b) It has nothing to do with the inability to control pitch or tempering expressiveness. It is the opposite. Other singers lack the ability to unleash their expressiveness or truly bare their soul to the world. It is that rawness combined with the musical darkness that combine to make the greatest band in history.

    I've said this many times, but I guess I can understand why people just can't handle Hammill's voice, but I feel sorry for you because you are missing the greatest musical emotional ride that one's grey matter can experience.
    "The woods would be very silent if the only birds that sang were those who sang best..." - Henry David Thoreau

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by gryphs also View Post
    a) Talk about the ultimate of prog snobbery.

    b) It has nothing to do with the inability to control pitch or tempering expressiveness. It is the opposite. Other singers lack the ability to unleash their expressiveness or truly bare their soul to the world. It is that rawness combined with the musical darkness that combine to make the greatest band in history.

    I've said this many times, but I guess I can understand why people just can't handle Hammill's voice, but I feel sorry for you because you are missing the greatest musical emotional ride that one's grey matter can experience.
    a) You don't "get it" - honestly, you don't. Seeing as John never said as much as Hammill being "bad" or that he didn't enjoy and/or respect Hammill himself. Which you would have known had you paid attention to the subject of address in your post.

    b) "Prog snobbery" doesn't exist other than that which implies a cockhead attitude from self-declared "proggers" towards other rock configurations of an allegedly lower valor.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  12. #62
    I had to reach 43 and sign up to progressive music forums to realise there are people who don't like Hammil's voice. There is not much room for discussion here, to me it's like saying that Hendrix can't play the guitar, or Keith Moon being unable to control his playing.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    I had to reach 43 and sign up to progressive music forums to realise there are people who don't like Hammil's voice. There is not much room for discussion here, to me it's like saying that Hendrix can't play the guitar, or Keith Moon being unable to control his playing.
    You joined PE in October 2016. We've had discussions on Hammill's voice and a rather large three-digit number of more or less intricate other topics since I joined 13 years back. As for listeners not "into" Hammill, there are also those not into Beefheart's, Robert Wyatt's, Alvaro Fella's, Roger Chapman's, Robin Willamson's, Kevin Coyne's, Demetrio Stratos', Czeslaw Niemen's and Dagmar Krause's - and these were some of the most generally respected (albeit peculiar) voices in art rock music as such. I personally love them all, but that's not the point; there are loads of folks out there who'd steer away from anything deemed even remotely "off-kilter" (of which you'll encounter in spades at this forum) - just stick around for a few years and beware.

    But again; this was not what John was getting at for his own sake - he made an actual argument which in theoretical terms is fully viable.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    You joined PE in October 2016. We've had discussions on Hammill's voice and a rather large three-digit number of more or less intricate other topics since I joined 13 years back. As for listeners not "into" Hammill, there are also those not into Beefheart's, Robert Wyatt's, Alvaro Fella's, Roger Chapman's, Robin Willamson's, Kevin Coyne's, Demetrio Stratos' and Dagmar Krause's - and these were some of the most generally respected (albeit peculiar) voices in art rock music as such. I personally love them all, but that's not the point; there are loads of folks out there who'd steer away from anything deemed even remotely "off-kilter" (of which you'll encounter in spades at this forum) - just stick around for a few years and beware.

    But again; this was not what John was getting at for his own sake - he made an actual argument which in theoretical terms is fully viable.
    I wasn't referring to any of the previous posts. I am just saying - as a fact - that it hadn't crossed my mind that there are people into progressive rock music that don't like Hammil's voice, at least I hadn't met one, and his voice to my ears isn't as peculiar as Beefheart's or Chapman's or Stratos'. Obviously all things in music is a matter of taste but if distance between taste is so vast there's not much to discuss, is there?

  15. #65
    As for the Parmenter/Hammil connection I see it more as a meeting of two completely distinct creative entities tackling the same bulk of raw material (agony, embarrassment, questionable redemption) than a direct influence, there's a very distinctive voice in Discipline that transcends all influences and makes them relevant and unique.

  16. #66
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    I wasn't referring to any of the previous posts. I am just saying - as a fact - that it hadn't crossed my mind that there are people into progressive rock music that don't like Hammil's voice, at least I hadn't met one, and his voice to my ears isn't as peculiar as Beefheart's or Chapman's or Stratos'. Obviously all things in music is a matter of taste but if distance between taste is so vast there's not much to discuss, is there?
    He gets lots of name checks here

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  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    Lol, somehow this makes earth a less friendly planet for me ��

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Zappathustra View Post
    there's a very distinctive voice in Discipline that transcends all influences and makes them relevant and unique.
    Oh, I veru much agree - which is definitely one of the main reasons why Discipline is one of the few current "symph" progressive bands I truly admire.

    And I think you're spot on about Hammill in general; his is certainly not an "eccentric" voice like Chapman's or Beefheart's, or a strangely virtuoso one like Stratos', or Krause's or (Diamanda) Galas' - it's simply just intensely personal and original.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  19. #69
    Geriatric Anomaly progeezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gryphs also View Post
    a) Talk about the ultimate of prog snobbery.

    I've said this many times, but I guess I can understand why people just can't handle Hammill's voice, but I feel sorry for you because you are missing the greatest musical emotional ride that one's grey matter can experience.
    You know I love you, man, but it is interesting that you start by talking about prog snobbery and then 2 sentences later show exactly what that is by that statement (even with your "understand" disclaimer).

    I understand why people love Hamill (now we're even in disclaimers). I love quite a few singers who technically can't sing well at all but take chances that work FOR ME that simply don't grate on me like PH. I'd say "names upon request" but that's not the point.

    That's called IMHO and nothing more. In Forensics class, they teach you that pontificating never works in an exchange of views.
    "My choice early in life was either to be a piano player in a whorehouse or a politician, and to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference"

    President Harry S. Truman

  20. #70
    In other news, apparently there's a whole genre of novels about people who are kidnapped and used as sex slaves by aliens.

    I know this, because every since I first searched for "Discipline Captive of the Wine Dark Seas", Amazon seems to think that this is something I'd be interested in.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpt3 View Post
    In other news, apparently there's a whole genre of novels about people who are kidnapped and used as sex slaves by aliens.

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    And, checking in late, Pawn Hearts is a large and acknowledged influence upon my own music - something recognized by at least one astute listener not informed of that ahead of time (Dexter Ford). Hamill's punk-like approach, his conviction that you don't have to be a killer musician to play progressive music and his insistence upon performing even if the result is imperfect, has shaped me as well. I think his writing is fantastic.

    But I still have trouble with his voice and vocal performances, wish he'd work on his pitch, and wish he'd realize that you don't have to go over the top to sing with feeling.

  23. #73
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post

    But I still have trouble with his voice and vocal performances, wish he'd work on his pitch, and wish he'd realize that you don't have to go over the top to sing with feeling.
    With good intent, I bought 3 VDGG albums. The instrumental side of the band is appealing but Peter Hamill's vocals are so awful I gave up. I realize some people like his vocals so no offence intended.

  24. #74
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Sorry if this has already been answered, but Ken, will this be for sale as a digital download on Bandcamp, and if so can you say when?

    Thanks.

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    I like the majority of Hamill's vocals, although it wasn't immediate. The one classic period album I still can't digest is Godbluff, because for me at least, the vocals are just too over-the-top melodramatic, on that one.

    neil

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