Ok, what's so great about... Steely Dan?

[jkelman]

That's not reality. It's an opinion. .

To be fair to MiL, he did say "my reality." Which suggests his opinion.

Just trying to be balanced here, as the way this has dissolved has become over the top.

I actually know and like MiL; that said, I will say he can get (sorry, man, but I believe it to be true, despite liking you a great deal, and you know it) a little carried away and be something of a pit bull when he believes himself to be right (and he is, at times, also to be fair to him; he does know his shit). But it seems like things have become very monolithic - as they sometimes do at this forum...for some, there don't seem to be the shades of gray that make life so rich) - when it comes to certain folks. Everything they post is bad, is suspect. That just isn't true, and amidst some of MiL's less than admirable approaches (just my opinion, MiL) there's also considerable knowledge of music...and jazz, in particular.

Same goes, IMO, for Kerry. A great musician and overall nice guy, but capable of being pulled into the fire. And I don't judge; hell, I'm as guilty as anyone for the same.

Just trying to inject a little balance, and a little reality. I also suspect most folks here would be worth meeting in person even if their online personalities leave something to be desired (and, I suspect, there are those who'd say the same about me...and hey, fair enough).

[Jefferson James]

I actually know and like MiL; that said, I will say he can get (sorry, man, but I believe it to be true, despite liking you a great deal, and you know it) a little carried away and be something of a pit bull when he believes himself to be right (and he is, at times, also to be fair to him; he does know his shit).

Hi Jon,

I don't know MIL but I do enjoy his feisty posts. It's just that several months ago he responded to one of my comments, and his language and "tactics" (for lack of a better word) vividly reminded me of dealing with someone with either borderline or narcissistic personality disorder.

As MIL mentioned somewhere in the quagmire of this thread, *everyone* has narcissistic and borderline traits, it's just the severity that differs.

MIL also mentioned the "shame" of mental illness but for me, there's no shame in calling out someone who, in my experience, tried manipulating me using techniques that are textbook BPD or NPD. There's no judgement here, just me expressing my opinion of the guy's style. I know exactly what he tried to do to me, and why, and I'm not into it.

For me it's as simple as not responding to the guy. The other night, I felt like responding because it was, like, the 20th time I'd seen MIL getting a bit....controlling with people here.

Thanks for the nice compliment, and, yeah, if I'm in the mood I can definitely get drawn into the fire. I had to kill-off all my social media accounts because of it LOL!

[progeezer]

One of the reasons I've never & will never use FB.

I get sucked into the morass of circular arguments here less than most only because sometimes it's just too much trouble and misplaced energy.

This thread, e.g., however, shows my ability to be easy prey as well at times.

[Jefferson James]

One of the reasons I've never & will never use FB.

I get sucked into the morass of circular arguments here less than most only because sometimes it's just too much trouble and misplaced energy.

This thread, e.g., however, shows my ability to be easy prey as well at times.

Circular arguments are exhausting in real life but here at PE sometimes they're entertaining as an observer.

You're a smart man for not being on Facebook. I used to be so addicted and thought I couldn't stop but after a week without it I found life got a whole lot simpler.

I tried Twitter a few weeks ago, cracked some jokes, but after a couple of weeks looking at the feed, I couldn't believe how absolutely vacuous the place is. No wonder this country is fucked, everyone's distracted and isolated in their own little virtual worlds making stupid puns and playing hashtag wars (talk about vacuous -- it's absolutely meaningless, just a huge brain-waster).

I hate the way FB and Twitter literally *change* my normal way of thinking. Both platforms prompt you to respond to crap you otherwise wouldn't. Both places initially inspire, then depress, me.

It's a helluva resource and kudos to the folks who have the time and inclination to utilize it. None of my bands would have gotten any attention if it weren't primarily for FB (PE is a great resource as well, and cooler). My band and some Facebook friends want me back on but those days are over. Let someone else do it.

[Baribrotzer]

Well, whatever his personality, MiL is smart enough and well-informed enough to actually argue with. He's not quite your usual troll who either:

1. Responds with strings of playground invective.
   
   or
   
   
2. Unloads heaps of lordly disdain upon us pathetic peasants who are too stupid and ignorant to be worth actually engaging in argument, or to deal with in any way other than in shitwagons of insults. (I made the mistake of trip-trapping over the bridge of one such person on YouTube, who couldn't be bothered to bring up any actual points of argument for someone as stupid as me, and said that in so many words.)

And as to social media: For me PE is IT, period. I refuse to go on Facebook because the whole thing of FB "friends", of un-"friend"-ing, and all the other FB buncombe just rubs me the wrong way. Also, because some of the sites I visit have Facebook-powered comment sections, and I've seen quite enough of the kind of bigoted nastiness that seems endemic on FB.

Oh, and thanks to John Kelman - one of the "real guys" on here as regards jazz - for going to considerable trouble trying to mediate this extended barney.

[wideopenears]

As an educational tool, yes. But less and less in performance, especially if you the European scene into the picture.

Sorry, but I've seen jazz everywhere from Canada and the USA to Norway, Germany, South Africa, Malaysia, Estonia, Finland, Italy and elsewhere. The value of jazz standards remains inestimable, but few play many of them anymore. That was not true during the neocon explosion of the early '80s, but now? Sorry, man, but you couldn't be more mistaken.

In the big concert halls, I think you're correct. In little Jazz corners across the world (and yes, such places still exist!) where unknowns play, standards still largely rule.


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[jkelman]

In the big concert halls, I think you're correct. In little Jazz corners across the world (and yes, such places still exist!) where unknowns play, standards still largely rule.


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Well I'd not say "big concert halls," as I've been to many festivals with venues ranging in the 250-3500 range.

But I'd agree that small clubs hiring local jazz musicians (excluding NYC, for the most part) are standards dominated...largely because the players are, more often than not, local, aspiring jazz musicians, and so playing standards live is a way for them to work on their shit. An educational tool, as I said.

So I think we're both kinda right...

[Baribrotzer]

Another point: So much jazz, even live jazz, involves musicians who haven't played together before. Standards provide a solution to the problem of material - free playing isn't appropriate in many cases, there's only a certain amount of of mileage that can be gotten from modal vamps or blues or "rhythm changes", and not everybody wants to read unrehearsed originals on the bandstand. But most professional jazz musicians and decent amateurs know the Real Book tunes well enough to get by on them, and some know them very well.

[wideopenears]

Well I'd not say "big concert halls," as I've been to many festivals with venues ranging in the 250-3500 range.

But I'd agree that small clubs hiring local jazz musicians (excluding NYC, for the most part) are standards dominated...largely because the players are, more often than not, local, aspiring jazz musicians, and so playing standards live is a way for them to work on their shit. An educational tool, as I said.

So I think we're both kinda right...

Works for me!

[wideopenears]

Another point: So much jazz, even live jazz, involves musicians who haven't played together before. Standards provide a solution to the problem of material - free playing isn't appropriate in many cases, there's only a certain amount of of mileage that can be gotten from modal vamps or blues or "rhythm changes", and not everybody wants to read unrehearsed originals on the bandstand. But most professional jazz musicians and decent amateurs know the Real Book tunes well enough to get by on them, and some know them very well.

Agree with this, as well....

[jkelman]

Another point: So much jazz, even live jazz, involves musicians who haven't played together before. Standards provide a solution to the problem of material - free playing isn't appropriate in many cases, there's only a certain amount of of mileage that can be gotten from modal vamps or blues or "rhythm changes", and not everybody wants to read unrehearsed originals on the bandstand. But most professional jazz musicians and decent amateurs know the Real Book tunes well enough to get by on them, and some know them very well.

Well, you make a good point...sort of. Because most jazz players now (wasn't always this way) are kickass sight-readers, so often people who've never played together before bring their own music, and folks just run it down. I know a local bassist who would bring musicians together from literally around the world, who'd never played together, and at best they'd run through the charts quickly during soundcheck....at best. They played without a safety net and even if the show wasn't 100% successful, it was always worth seeing.

OTOH, for those who don't write - or, say, at jazz festival jam sessions where nobody wants to work at doing new music - they just want to blow.....there's nothing more valuable than The Real Book and its collection of standards, old and new.

[Jerjo]

It'd be kinda cool if some of the SD catalog would become "standard" as well.

[Baribrotzer]

OTOH, for those who don't write - or, say, at jazz festival jam sessions where nobody wants to work at doing new music - they just want to blow.....there's nothing more valuable than The Real Book and its collection of standards, old and new.

That was my point. Because they can read at that level doesn't mean they always want to, or always expect to on even a casual gig. Plus, standards (and blues) can provide a useful common ground among musicians of different generations, and of even the most opposed schools of thought. For example, imagine Wynton on stage with Braxton or Zorn - they'd probably play standards.

[Baribrotzer]

It'd be kinda cool if some of the SD catalog would become "standard" as well.

An interesting point. I wonder which tunes would work best. They'd need to be harmonically interesting to solo over, have strong enough melodies to be recognizable as instrumentals, and be reasonably well-known.

EDIT: They would also need to not depend upon specific parts of the arrangement for their recognition and appeal, because standards don't. That's one reason why an awful lot of rock-era music never became standards: so much of it involves specific intros, fills, background parts, stops and starts in the rhythm section and the like. For example, try to imagine "Bodhisattva" without that guitar intro, or that piano vamp, or the blues lick behind the vocal, or the fast written keyboard/guitar exchanges in the middle - just the vocal line and the chord changes. There wouldn't be all that much left except a blues tune with a somewhat unusual turnaround, and that's probably not enough for "standard" status.

[3LockBox]

Steely Dan isn't jazz... it's better than jazz.

[progeezer]

I have actually heard both "Aja" (the song) and SD's version of "E St Louis etc." played on the REAL (as opposed to smooth) Jazz Sirius station (during my free trial-too many cds to want it for money).

[jkelman]

That was my point. Because they can read at that level doesn't mean they always want to, or always expect to on even a casual gig. Plus, standards (and blues) can provide a useful common ground among musicians of different generations, and of even the most opposed schools of thought. For example, imagine Wynton on stage with Braxton or Zorn - they'd probably play standards.

I'm with ya expect your last point. Knowing Braxton a bit but especially of Zorn (we've never met/communicated) I doubt they (but especially Zorn) would play standards. Anthony a big maybe, as he's done so on his own sessions....but I'll bet they'd be more likely to go for totally free improv.....

....also, highly unlikely they'd ever play with Wynton anyway

[Mister Triscuits]

It'd be kinda cool if some of the SD catalog would become "standard" as well.

The latest Real Book volume from Hal Leonard has "Peg" in it. (Also a song called "Do It Again," but it's Gershwin, not the Dan.)

[Lino]

As much as I've enjoyed Steely Dan music over the years, I can't say that they really hit that spot for me.

[No Pride]

But I'd agree that small clubs hiring local jazz musicians (excluding NYC, for the most part) are standards dominated...largely because the players are, more often than not, local, aspiring jazz musicians, and so playing standards live is a way for them to work on their shit. An educational tool, as I said.

Well here in Chicago, the "unknowns" playing small clubs are not "aspiring jazz musicians;" they're world class players... and they can be heard playing standards and/or originals. I suppose it has something to do with the city itself; it's not NYC, the jazz capitol of the world, but it is a major city with a lot of great musicians. Some people just preferred to not live in NYC for various reasons. The jazz jam sessions are for the aspiring players. They're usually hosted by a group of guys who can really play and those guys will do a first set themselves, then the "sit-inners" start doing their thing while the house band sits at the bar for the rest of the evening. And at that point, it's all standards (jazz and GAS standards).

[jkelman]

Well here in Chicago, the "unknowns" playing small clubs are not "aspiring jazz musicians;" they're world class players... and they can be heard playing standards and/or originals. I suppose it has something to do with the city itself; it's not NYC, the jazz capitol of the world, but it is a major city with a lot of great musicians. Some people just preferred to not live in NYC for various reasons. The jazz jam sessions are for the aspiring players. They're usually hosted by a group of guys who can really play and those guys will do a first set themselves, then the "sit-inners" start doing their thing while the house band sits at the bar for the rest of the evening. And at that point, it's all standards (jazz and GAS standards).

Fair enough. And to be clear, nothing I said was meant to suggest empirical "alls"; there are, indeed, world class players who plays standards, and for a number of reasons including (but not all):

1. As said by other(s), because it's an easy, truly common language for folks who don't want to worry about reading new, perhaps difficult, charts...
2. In the hands of world class players (and to be fair, certainly some aspiring/up-and-comers too), there's still plenty to mine in the Great American Songbook and jazz standards. Look at artists like Brad Mehldau and Fred Hersch, for example: they not only continue to bring certain standards into their albums and live shows, they reinvent them in very personal ways. Anyone who thinks standards are dead are mistaken; in the right hands, they can, indeed, be grist for some very unique interpretations that extent beyond soloing into arrangements, for example.

So, as ever, I'm not trying to present anything I've said as empiricals, for which there are not exceptions...as there are plenty. But one thing IS true - and this is at all levels of musicians, from aspiring, up-and-comers to top-tier: standards, while playing at times some part of what they do, is not as big a part of what they do, as was once the case. Standards still show up on albums by Mehldau, Bill Frisell, John Scofield and John Abercrombie, for example; but they don't dominate, more often than not, compared to say 30 years ago and then 50+.

In the '70s, most musicians reaching top-tier were more interested in original music. Ralph Towner, told me, in fact, at the time, that he was curious about why so many jazzers were playing standards. Paraphrasing him, he said "When we needed to make money we took lounge gigs, weddings, whatever, where we largely played standards; but when we wanted to really make music, we got together and worked on original material. We may not have been able to gig it much, but that was the focus of our efforts."

Hope this clarifies; in a nutshell, neither is anyone completely right (including me), nor are they completely incorrect. A ever, it's never quite that simple.

[Garden Dreamer]

I sure dug these guys back in the day but for whatever reasons I've had no desire to listen to them since the 80's.

[Sputnik]

Just gave Royal Scan a fresh listen. To me, this is an album that starts really strong and tails off at the end. The last three songs are just so-so, imo, and The Fez is cute, but isn't exactly a masterpiece. Green Earrings is awesome, though. To me, this is a bit of a dip in quality before their masterpiece. But you can hear a lot of the sophistication of Aja previewed on this album, and when it works, it's every bit as good. Just not as consistent to my ears. I still prefer Katy Lied, which really delivers on every song for me.

Bill

[progeezer]

^^^^ Must be where I grew up that makes "Scam" (the song) my 2nd favorite track after "Don't Take Me Alive".

[Sputnik]

^^^^ Must be where I grew up that makes "Scam" (the song) my 2nd favorite track after "Don't Take Me Alive".

Don't Take Me alive really knocked me out on tonight's listen. In fact, I'm thinking of proposing it as a cover to one of the bands I'm in, provided I can sing it and my wife can play all the crazy changes on keys. Really great track, one I've sort of overlooked in their catalog, but will do so no longer.

Bill