Ok, what's so great about... Steely Dan?

[progeezer]

Now, Steve. Are you REALLY displaying your Sunday best "virtual people skills" here. Taking digs at me without doing it directly. Is that really the example that one should want to set for good behavior on the internet? Heed thine own advice.........one fellow NYC snarky-ass native to another.

Huh? Why, whatever could you mean? There's not one snarky bone in my poor, old, declining body.

I wonder if Ernie, Kim & John, with all their musical and on-the-gig training & knowledge over many years, have had time the last couple of days to do enough homework to deal with your obviously superior analytical musical skills?

I guess I'm just an inquisitive old man.

Oh, and living in the USA as opposed to NYC since 1971, I've found, does wonders for curbing one's snark. I only take it out when reason fails now.

[musicislife]

Huh? Why, whatever could you mean? There's not one snarky bone in my poor, old, declining body.

I wonder if Ernie, Kim & John, with all their musical and on-the-gig training & knowledge over many years, have had time the last couple of days to do enough homework to deal with your obviously superior analytical musical skills?

I guess I'm just an inquisitive old man.

Oh, and living in the USA as opposed to NYC since 1971, I've found, does wonders for curbing one's snark. I only take it out when reason fails now.

I don't know who Bert, Ernie or Kim Jong-un are, but I'll take your word for it. Since they seem to be musicians, I'm sure they know everything and have analytical skills superior to us non-musicians.

Or when kidneys fail...........

Whatever do I mean is that you called me out for poor internet etiquette, and I called you out for hypocrisy. While you may have left NYC (and apparently returned to the USA), you've also forgotten to keep track of what you preach. Bad form, especially when those you preach at have more than a few brain cells left and can spot bs from a mile away. Crony-ism and instigation seem to be your thing. Gotcha Next time you gots a problem with me, take it up with me.

[Dave]

[progeezer]

Duly Noted, MIL, now who were you the last time you were banned here?

[Baribrotzer]

If those aren't straight-up jazz changes, I don't know what they are. All those extended chords, those key shifts where you don't quite expect them - maybe what they're doing wasn't quite cutting edge in terms of 1974 jazz, but they're straight out of jazz musicians' emendations to the Great American Songbook's musical vocabulary. And that isn't even mentioning Phil Woods's alto solo.

Besides, you have to remember that Becker and Fagan were songwriters and composers, not jazz players - more in the tradition of Gil Evans than of Miles. Their "thing" was to recast the jazz tradition in terms of contemporary pop music, not to actually play jazz themselves. And I think they'd be the first people to tell you that they weren't really jazz musicians and their music wasn't really jazz.

[musicislife]

Duly Noted, MIL, now who were you the last time your were banned here?

You keep insisting that I was someone else here. Think what you want. I don't play that game. There's no point in it. You see my join date. I posted, then I stopped and then I came back. Simple as that.

[musicislife]

If those aren't straight-up jazz changes, I don't know what they are. All those extended chords, those key shifts where you don't quite expect them - maybe what they're doing wasn't quite cutting edge in terms of 1974 jazz, but they're straight out of jazz musicians' emendations to the Great American Songbook's musical vocabulary. And that isn't even mentioning Phil Woods's alto solo.

Besides, you have to remember that Becker and Fagan were songwriters and composers, not jazz players - more in the tradition of Gil Evans than of Miles. Their "thing" was to recast the jazz tradition in terms of contemporary pop music, not to actually play jazz themselves. And I think they'd be the first people to tell you that they weren't really jazz musicians and their music wasn't really jazz.

Point? Chicago had horns. So did Blood, Sweat and Tears. Were they jazz/not jazz too? Weren't Steely Dan just doing what they did? As a matter of fact, the great Joe Henderson was a member of BST for a while. Do you really think that that was his choice? He was doing it for a paycheck, the same as Phil Woods, or Larry Carlton, or Victor Feldman. Not sure why Shorter took their money - he was already a co-leader of a band that was more popular than Dan when he soloed on Aja.

Btw, Evans was a pretty darned good piano player when he chose to play. Putting Fagen and Becker in his class, or calling them as good a songwriting duo (as good as Lennon/McCartney???) as ever existed is ludicrous.

[Baribrotzer]

Not sure why Shorter took their money - he was already a co-leader of a band that was more popular than Dan when he soloed on Aja.

Maybe because he liked their music? Stranger things have happened. But I guess you can't imagine that a guy like him - who obviously knows his stuff - would think they had something worthwhile going on. Even if it wasn't exactly jazz.

[alucard]

Most great musicians don't limit themselves to genre borders. Miles Davis didn't liked the word Jazz and the way Wynton Marsalis and the Lincoln center try to break down Jazz to one form with clearly defined limits is an insult to musicians transgressing this frame. Joni Mitchell is another example of an artist who was appreciated by and worked with musicians like Mingus, Shorter and Pastorius.

[musicislife]

Maybe because he liked their music? Stranger things have happened. But I guess you can't imagine that a guy like him - who obviously knows his stuff - would think they had something worthwhile going on. Even if it wasn't exactly jazz.

I can imagine anything and everything..........thankfully. That's precisely why I gravitate towards adventure in music. Btw, Shorter is my fave saxophonist

[musicislife]

Most great musicians don't limit themselves to genre borders. Miles Davis didn't liked the word Jazz and the way Wynton Marsalis and the Lincoln center try to break down Jazz to one form with clearly defined limits is an insult to musicians transgressing this frame. Joni Mitchell is another example of an artist who was appreciated by and worked with musicians like Mingus, Shorter and Pastorius.

Thanks for the lesson. The fact that Steely Dan is not jazz was never my point.

[wideopenears]

When I said "know" those tunes, I meant know how to play and improvise over them.

And there are plenty of jazz artists who still play American Songbook tunes, even modern players who write their own stuff play them. Last time I was in NYC, I went to The Village Vanguard and heard Kurt Rosenwinkle's Standards Trio and that's almost all they played.

Absolutely correct. The claim that the songbook hasn't been highly used in practice for 4 decades is absurd. Forget the Vanguard for a moment, and let's talk about the non-Top Tier jazz places throughout America--you're gonna hear standards. Granted, at large concert halls and festivals you'll hear the Top Billed performers playing their own compositions, etc., but even there I guarantee you're gonna hear a few standards. But down the street, at Miss Olive's Cafe, for instance, you'll get How High the Moon, or All The Things You Are.......even amongst hardcore Jazz fans, there's a strain of folks who only want to hear that stuff, and plenty of excellent muscians who make a living doing just that. Scott Hamilton comes to mind immediately. But there are plenty.

[wideopenears]

Thanks for the lesson. The fact that Steely Dan is not jazz was never my point.

Well, you've spent a bit of time arguing that they're not jazz. I suppose your point is that they're over-rated...that's subjective, though. I love them. Many here love them. Quite a few Jazzers, and Jazz Lovers, love them. You don't. Great. Onward, then.

[Sean]

https://www.facebook.com/23490198652...9383884076853/
Here's a link to the Steely set I was part of last week, if you have FB^^^

[musicislife]

Absolutely correct. The claim that the songbook hasn't been highly used in practice for 4 decades is absurd. Forget the Vanguard for a moment, and let's talk about the non-Top Tier jazz places throughout America--you're gonna hear standards. Granted, at large concert halls and festivals you'll hear the Top Billed performers playing their own compositions, etc., but even there I guarantee you're gonna hear a few standards. But down the street, at Miss Olive's Cafe, for instance, you'll get How High the Moon, or All The Things You Are.......even amongst hardcore Jazz fans, there's a strain of folks who only want to hear that stuff, and plenty of excellent muscians who make a living doing just that. Scott Hamilton comes to mind immediately. But there are plenty.

I would say that the claim that the GAS IS still highly used is absurd. Maybe our perspectives are different. New York has a much more vital jazz scene than CA. And besides, "a few standards" is exactly the same as "not highly used anymore". All jazzers are now composers and are playing their tunes anywhere they play - in NYC, at least.

[Baribrotzer]

Absolutely correct. The claim that the songbook hasn't been highly used in practice for 4 decades is absurd. Forget the Vanguard for a moment, and let's talk about the non-Top Tier jazz places throughout America--you're gonna hear standards. Granted, at large concert halls and festivals you'll hear the Top Billed performers playing their own compositions, etc., but even there I guarantee you're gonna hear a few standards. But down the street, at Miss Olive's Cafe, for instance, you'll get How High the Moon, or All The Things You Are.......even amongst hardcore Jazz fans, there's a strain of folks who only want to hear that stuff, and plenty of excellent musicians who make a living doing just that. Scott Hamilton comes to mind immediately. But there are plenty.

It's like classical musicians playing Bach and Beethoven, or rock guys playing Beatles tunes. Even the avant-gardists do that, or at least the best of them do, because that's where it all starts. If you can't produce a good, musical interpretation of earlier music, you probably can't produce one of something that's cutting edge.

[musicislife]

Well, you've spent a bit of time arguing that they're not jazz. I suppose your point is that they're over-rated...that's subjective, though. I love them. Many here love them. Quite a few Jazzers, and Jazz Lovers, love them. You don't. Great. Onward, then.

Offended? LOL

When you've polled (or poled) all jazzers and jazz lovers, let me know. And why exactly does the fact that many here love them matter to me? If it did, I would've been listening to the Eagles and Blue Oyster Cult for the last 40 years.

[musicislife]

It's like classical musicians playing Bach and Beethoven, or rock guys playing Beatles tunes. Even the avant-gardists do that, or at least the best of them do, because that's where it all starts. If you can't produce a good, musical interpretation of earlier music, you probably can't produce one of something that's cutting edge.

The Beatles are the fathers of rock and roll? roflmao. This is exactly the problem with claiming Steely Dan to be jazz. If I want jazz, why would I listen to them when I can listen to the real things?

[Baribrotzer]

And besides, "a few standards" is exactly the same as "not highly used anymore".

Not quite. What musicians do on the bandstand is often not what they do in their own practice room.

Because to play any standard really well, other than the simplest, you need to be able to play all standards. And the point of playing them isn't to know just those particular tunes, it is acquiring and retaining the skills required to solo over elaborate chord progressions, even if more recent music isn't built on those strings and strings of ii-V7-I or iii-vi-ii-V7-I or ii(b5)-V7-i changes. You develop abilities at melodic extension and chord-substitution that will give you the ability to play over anything, even "Countdown" or "Giant Steps" or crazier extensions of standard harmonic practice. Or your own tunes, or something your piano player brings in.

[wideopenears]

I would say that the claim that the GAS IS still highly used is absurd. Maybe our perspectives are different. New York has a much more vital jazz scene than CA. And besides, "a few standards" is exactly the same as "not highly used anymore". All jazzers are now composers and are playing their tunes anywhere they play - in NYC, at least.

I grew up in NY, and spent many weekends from my late teens to late 20's at jazz clubs in NY. The Vanguard, Sweet Basil, Zinc, Blue Note, etc., etc. as well as hole-in-the-wall places with no notoriety outside of the hardcore jazzbo scene. Man, every time I was at 55 Christopher, no matter who was playing, I heard some standards. The fact is that Jazz, as an art form, still relies very heavily on standards.

[wideopenears]

Offended? LOL

When you've polled (or poled) all jazzers and jazz lovers, let me know. And why exactly does the fact that many here love them matter to me? If it did, I would've been listening to the Eagles and Blue Oyster Cult for the last 40 years.

Not offended, just a bit perplexed by incorrect assertions. But honestly, if the issue doesn't matter to you, you're spending a great deal of energy, and creating a good bit of enmity, totally disregarding the whole issue.

People who comment, extensively, on subjects they are not interested in....in confrontational ways....hmmm....what do we call them, her on the interwebz?

[Jefferson James]

People who comment, extensively, on subjects they are not interested in....in confrontational ways....hmmm....what do we call them, her on the interwebz?

Personality disordered.

[musicislife]

Personality disordered.

I don't know about no interwebz, but in real life, what we'd say is "It would take one to know one".

[musicislife]

I grew up in NY, and spent many weekends from my late teens to late 20's at jazz clubs in NY. The Vanguard, Sweet Basil, Zinc, Blue Note, etc., etc. as well as hole-in-the-wall places with no notoriety outside of the hardcore jazzbo scene. Man, every time I was at 55 Christopher, no matter who was playing, I heard some standards. The fact is that Jazz, as an art form, still relies very heavily on standards.

I heard "some standards" is NOT "still relies heavily on standards". The NYC jazz scene has changed dramatically in the last 40 years.

[musicislife]

Not offended, just a bit perplexed by incorrect assertions. But honestly, if the issue doesn't matter to you, you're spending a great deal of energy, and creating a good bit of enmity, totally disregarding the whole issue.

People who comment, extensively, on subjects they are not interested in....in confrontational ways....hmmm....what do we call them, her on the interwebz?

Boy, you guys suffer no dissenters, do you? LOL Incorrect assumptions? No way. Difference of opinion.

If the thread were titled something like "Show your love for SD", I could see your point about wasting my time. But, the thread is open to the answer "nothing". So, learn what a troll is.