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Thread: What do you think of John Entwistle's bass tone with the Alembics?

  1. #76
    Member lak611's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Two completely different types of sounds. Without getting into how they work, the envelope filter is basically the "Bwaaaaaah" sound you hear on the bass on a lot of Tormato. Listen to the Grateful Dead song Estimated Prophet to hear the sound on guitar. Jerry Garcia plays a staccato guitar riff on the intro, so you get this tight "Bwop" sound on each note, but during the first verse he plays sustained chords, so as the volume of the guitars strings dies, the filter sweeps downward slowly, more of a "Bwaaaaaaaah" sound, much like you hear Squire do on the Silent Wings Of Freedom intro.

    The Harmonizer was actually devised by a company called Eventide (other companies make them, but "Harmonizer" is trademarked by Eventide, so everyone else has to call them pitch transposers or pitch shifters). Basically it shifts the pitch of the incoming signal. I think the basic idea was for guitarists, let's say for instance, to recreate overdubbed guitar harmonies onstage. Of course, the "Harmonized" sound tends to be very unnatural sounding, so it sounds more like a guitar with a synth or something doing the harmony. During the 80's (and maybe even today), they were used a lot on TV and in movies sound effects departments to generate "Chipmunk" or "demon" voices (things that you used to have play with the tape speed to get).

    Probably the most immediately recognizable use of a pitch transposer in music (technically it wasn't a Harmonizer) was Trevor Rabin's guitar solo on Owner Of A Lonely Heart. That sound was basically generated by setting the MXR Pitch Transposer to a fifth, and I think you have to turn the regeneration up a bit too. I think he said he also liked to set it for an octave up to get a pseudo-12 string guitar sound when they did And You And I live.

    But back to how Squire used it: basically, instead of producing an immediately recognizable pitch change, he had it set up to shift just a few cents, which causes an effect similar to what we now call "chorusing". I think at the time maybe chorus pedals weren't available yet, who knows. But that basic sound became common place in music during the 80's, either from a Harmonizer or from a chorus pedal, that sort of shimmering sound, you hear it on guitars, bass, keyboards, etc.

    Hell, I read once that a lot of singers would process their vocals through a pair of Harmonizers, in stereo, shifting one up just a little bit on one side of the stereo field, the other shifting down just a little bit on the other side of the stereo field, and the unprocessed voice straight up the middle. You add a little reverb and delay, and you get something that sounds more ethereal than just the vocalist's natural voice. It's very subtle but very effective. I believe I read once that Jon Anderson used to do this a lot.
    Thanks for the explanation in a way that I'm able to understand even though I'm not a bassist or guitarist. 😊 That does really help.

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    Laura

  2. #77
    Member lak611's Avatar
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    Did Lake use any effects on "The Barbarian"?

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    Laura

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by lak611 View Post
    Did Lake use any effects on "The Barbarian"?
    The very first thing you hear on side one of the first ELP record is fuzz bass. I'm not sure what pedal he used, but it's just a fuzztone, not unlike ones used by many guitarists during that era.

  4. #79
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    I'm surprised that I haven't of heard more bass players experimenting with a Leslie given the incredible tone John Paul Jones got on "Heartbreaker".

    I always liked the tone the late Allen Woody had on the early Gov't Mule albums but I don't think he ever stuck to just one bass. Here's a photo of him and his collection.

    Allen Woody bass collection.jpg
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  5. #80
    Member lak611's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    I'm surprised that I haven't of heard more bass players experimenting with a Leslie given the incredible tone John Paul Jones got on "Heartbreaker".

    I always liked the tone the late Allen Woody had on the early Gov't Mule albums but I don't think he ever stuck to just one bass. Here's a photo of him and his collection.

    Allen Woody bass collection.jpg
    Wow! That's quite a collection. 😊

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  6. #81
    Member lak611's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    The very first thing you hear on side one of the first ELP record is fuzz bass. I'm not sure what pedal he used, but it's just a fuzztone, not unlike ones used by many guitarists during that era.
    Thanks! I don't know if he ever said what brand of pedal he used.

    I found this: http://ladiesofthelake.com/cabinet/anyquestions.html

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  7. #82
    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    I'm surprised that I haven't of heard more bass players experimenting with a Leslie given the incredible tone John Paul Jones got on "Heartbreaker"
    That was a neat studio trick, but I'm not sure a Leslie would generally be that great for bass. If you listen to the isolated Heartbreaker bass track, it's pretty thin, so a lot of post EQ was probably needed to give it the guts you hear on the final recording. Obviously there's also a fair bit of distortion on the bass as well, and that also tends to thin the tone out.

    Bill

  8. #83
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    That was a neat studio trick, but I'm not sure a Leslie would generally be that great for bass. If you listen to the isolated Heartbreaker bass track, it's pretty thin, so a lot of post EQ was probably needed to give it the guts you hear on the final recording. Obviously there's also a fair bit of distortion on the bass as well, and that also tends to thin the tone out.

    Bill
    Could he have put a split signal out - to both an amp and the Leslie?
    Doesnt sound thin here ...

  9. #84
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    btw - you can buy alembic pickups for your bass. Then you get lots of clear top and bottom and less midrange.
    http://alembic.stores.yahoo.net/axybtacpic.html PB
    http://alembic.stores.yahoo.net/jzbtacpic.html JB

    Hellmut Hattler does this.
    http://www.danbbs.dk/~m-bohn/kraan/hattlerbass.htm


  10. #85
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    btw - you can buy alembic pickups for your bass. Then you get lots of clear top and bottom and less midrange.
    Voicing is dictated by the location of the pickup: an Alembic P-Bass pickup in the P-bass sweet spot will still sound like a P-bass, granted with a lot of harmonic structure -- and theres tons of "True Active/LowZ" pickups out there....EMGs are true active (not the Selects), Seymour Duncan has a set of True Active Basslines for J and P, and Peavey's VFLs just to name a few....I have a '04 4-String USA Peavey Cirrus with those VFLs and they are really nice. Very Ken Smith-ish but, if I parametric boost 8K, its gets very Stingray-ish ---- wonderful pickups

    Besides, the secret to having crisp highs and clear top and bottom on any bass, regardless of pickup type and position (and, of course, the articulation of the player), is fresh strings

  11. #86
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Do you hear a P-Bass in the track with Kraan above?
    Its an Ibanez Roadstar with Alembic P-Bass pickup.
    Today he mostly uses a Status bass with the same pickup.

    Usually if you play jazz, you want the midrange.


  12. #87
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Do you hear a P-Bass in the track with Kraan above?
    Its an Ibanez Roadstar with Alembic P-Bass pickup.
    Today he mostly uses a Status bass with the same pickup.

    Usually if you play jazz, you want the midrange.

    When I was talking about a p-pickup in the p-bass sweet spot, i was referring to single pickup p-basses and similar.....his Roadstar must be a P/J and not just a P --- fantastic basses, btw, even the lower lines

    If you want a bass that sounds like a Classic Alembic, the pickups need to be in that classic Alembic positioning first and foremost....this is why a Peavey T-40 sounds remarkably like a Classic Alembic ( yes, the T-40 is passive, but those pickups have some ridiculously high output)....true, theres no Q-Sweep so its not going to get every Alembic tone but the voicings are there
    Last edited by klothos; 02-22-2017 at 10:29 AM.

  13. #88
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    His Roadstar must be a P/J and not just a P --- fantastic basses, btw
    This (above) is a Status, with Alembic P and J pickup.

    Here you can see him with the roadstar (1989) - same combination, alembic j bass pickup and P pickup in the 'square'



    Attached Images Attached Images

  14. #89
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    ^^ good stuff........love his bass: its an RB760 I think

  15. #90
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    STATUS Eclipse Artist – custom made - Alembic P-PU, Kahler Tremolo
    He had 2 of them but gave the blue one to his daughter.

    I made this page about his basses, and corresponds with HH regularily.
    http://www.danbbs.dk/~m-bohn/kraan/hattlerbass.htm

    Backstage photos from Hamburg 2003
    http://www.danbbs.dk/~m-bohn/kraan/i...rg_warmup1.jpg
    http://www.danbbs.dk/~m-bohn/kraan/i...rg_warmup2.jpg

    Some photos from a private festival in Denmark I was co-arranger of
    http://www.danbbs.dk/~m-bohn/kraan/z....htm#Helnaes09
    http://www.danbbs.dk/~m-bohn/kraan/2...tm#Helnaes2011

  16. #91
    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Could he have put a split signal out - to both an amp and the Leslie?
    Sure, that's possible. That certainly would fill the sound out. The problem is, outside the studio, it would be very difficult to balance a Leslie with another cabinet for bass. Leslies are not particularly powerful, so it would be a challenge to balance the tones in a way that the Leslie effect really comes through with the low notes of a bass. It was probably hard enough to work with them on an organ. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but I think it would have complicated things tremendously, and given how poorly bass comes through in large venues like the ones Zeppelin was playing, probably would not have been worth it. And that's likely why you don't see a lot of bass players fooling with them much, outside of a few studio situations.

    Bill

  17. #92
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    I'm surprised that I haven't of heard more bass players experimenting with a Leslie given the incredible tone John Paul Jones got on "Heartbreaker".
    These days , theres plenty of pedals on the market that do a decent facsimile.....Roscoe Beck uses one I believe....Still, its a lot of money for an actual Leslie (not to mention hauling it around and setting it up) and the (decent) pedals arent cheap either for something that would be used sparingly...at least, thats how I would see it as a player EBPMMV (Every Bass Players Mileage May Vary)


  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    I'm surprised that I haven't of heard more bass players experimenting with a Leslie given the incredible tone John Paul Jones got on "Heartbreaker".

    I always liked the tone the late Allen Woody had on the early Gov't Mule albums but I don't think he ever stuck to just one bass. Here's a photo of him and his collection.

    Allen Woody bass collection.jpg
    Yeah, he used a lot of different stuff. I know I've seen photos of him playing lots of different instruments. He apparently had a bass/mandolin doubleneck built by Gibson. He also had a Flying V shaped bass which was either an 8 string or 12 string bass. And then of course there was his Modulus Graphite 18 string bass. No, that's not a typo, I said 18 string bass, which he used occasionally the first couple years he played with the Allman Brothers Band (he's credited with playing it on Shades Of Two Worlds and An Evening With The Allman Brothers Band, but by the time I got to see them in 93, he had stopped using it live).

    And he was also a pretty impressive guitarist too. When I first heard that he was playing in Blue Floyd (a sort of all star Pink Floyd tribute, which basically reinvented the classic songs in more traditional blues/rock forms), I assumed he'd be the bassist. But when I saw them concert, he came onstage, with a guitar, and I thought "Oh, ok, he's playing rhythm guitar, while Marc Ford plays lead, right?". But no, they both played lead guitar, alternating on solos and such, and Allen proved himself just as good a guitarist as he was a bassist. And I think one or maybe two songs, he also played mandolin.

    I think he usually played a Gibson EB-2 with Gov't Mule. I can't remember what he used the one and only time I got to see them in concert before he went home, though.

  19. #94
    Member wideopenears's Avatar
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    http://www.bestbassgear.com/ebass/ar...eid=203349c7d6

    Pretty cool demo of an Alembic....
    "And this is the chorus.....or perhaps it's a bridge...."

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