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Thread: Proto prog thread

  1. #26
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Well, the jazz label is present, but hardly a dominant one, IMHO
    How "slightly jazzier" becomes [Jazz} "dominant" is beyond me. My brain doesn't work that way.
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  2. #27
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    The list represents our favorites of the genre .
    Yeah, I know that's the intent. I find the ones I listed to be way outside the scope. There are others I could nit-pick, but I don't consider the ones i listed to be nit-picking. They're square pegs.


    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    I think most of the list falls into the "in between" unclassifiable genre of late 60s/early 70s prog.

    Its a "sound" of a bygone era .
    Yes, and it's that sound that separates them out from other music and groups them together in this category. It's not like full-blown Prog-Rock wasn't happening right alongside these releases, in many (most?) cases.
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  3. #28
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    On the list are 2 Burnin' Red Ivanhoe albums mentioned - there exist an album in between those 2 which should qualify as well. Selftitled.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC97-y8S9e4

    Day of Phoenix is also proto something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SwPTqyfrsI

  4. #29
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Just re listened to Pete Brown & Piblokto! ~ Things May Come and Things May Go but the Art School Dance Goes on Forever (1970).

    Nice album with a small ensemble- G/B/K/V/alto sax and a sparse dry production .

    Mostly mid tempo jazzy inflected art rock, with only one mild rocker Walk for charity, run for money.

    Pete Browns singing reminds me of Robert Wyatt, giving this album a very Canterbury vibe.

    Here's some Pete Brown trivia:

    -He was/is a poet, and his first band ,The First Real Poetry Band featured John McLaughlin on guitar.

    -Was thrown out of his next band, Battered Ornaments after recording two albums.

    -That led him to writing lyrics for Cream.
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  5. #30
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Day of Phoenix is also proto something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SwPTqyfrsI
    Some nifty twin guitar work there!
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  6. #31
    Greenslade is certainly full blown prog. How can drummer Andy McCulluch, after playing with King Crimson in their third album (Lizard), and Dave Greenslade, after a couple of years in Colosseum, go back to play 'proto-prog? Besides, the music completely corroborates this. I would also certainly say Jonesy was prog, and a couple of others. Anyway, great list.

  7. #32
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    How "slightly jazzier" becomes [Jazz} "dominant" is beyond me. My brain doesn't work that way.
    Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers

    Quote Originally Posted by Svetonio View Post
    I saw that list for the first time - and hence it has been discuss a bit - here.
    It's been months (years, maybe) that meant to check that site out

    Done

    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post

    -He was/is a poet, and his first band ,The First Real Poetry Band featured John McLaughlin on guitar.

    -Was thrown out of his next band, Battered Ornaments after recording before their second album. hence BA withouit PB

    -That led him to writing lyrics for Cream.
    he also recorded an album with Graham Bown

    And since BA and Piblokto dated from 69 to 71, he was first writing lyrics for Jack Bruce (both in Cream and his solo albums) before starting his own bands... and he had some Colosseum links via Dick Heckstall-Smith
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by yoyiceu View Post
    Greenslade is certainly full blown prog. How can drummer Andy McCulluch, after playing with King Crimson in their third album (Lizard), and Dave Greenslade, after a couple of years in Colosseum, go back to play 'proto-prog? Besides, the music completely corroborates this. I would also certainly say Jonesy was prog, and a couple of others. Anyway, great list.
    I agree.

    But then again, much so-called "proto" was indeed "full blown" to begin with - but existed before the genre adopted stylistic form(s) (as recognized in retrospect) and thus essentially comprised a mishmash of various templates and approaches, some apparently wholly disparate. Greenslade, I'd argue, were still a "symphonic" rock quartet with a prominent jazz/fusion influence.

    I hardly think it's about degrees; a title like Secondhand's Death May Be Your Santa Claus, for instance, contains studio experimentation on a surpiringly high level of technical standards for 1971, and (as John/Baribrotzer suggested), it's not really about the advancement of formalities either - as some works (Egg's The Polite Force, for example) moved compositionally further than what most "progressive" acts would still be searching many years later.

    Progressive rock music in its "proto" period (late '66 until early '72, I suppose, with obvious backdrops thereafter as well; think a band like Fusion Orchestra or Circus 2000) lingered on its experimentalist outline as prolonged from the spirit of psychedelia - yet with somewhat other aims and objectives. Some folks keep complaining about the gap between Egg's "Boilk" and "Long Piece no. 3", but they're actually only two sides of a coin; a "rock ensemble" transgressing its inherently defined limitations of style and scope.

    Damn, I feel a bug comin' up. There'll be blood this New Year's whisky weekend; drowning in the wonderfully juvenile snot of proto-prog adolescence. I refuse to play that Elias Hulk "drum solo", though. And there's no friggin' way I'll be spinning Clear Blue Sky; one has to draw that line somewhere.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  9. #34
    Was Parlour Band - Is a Friend? ever released on CD? Had the LP like 30+ years ago. Long since gone. Haven't thought about them in about the same amount of time.

  10. #35
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    there's no friggin' way I'll be spinning Clear Blue Sky; one has to draw that line somewhere.
    That one always gets panned, but I think it has a ton of charm. Oh well.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by saucyjackstl View Post
    Was Parlour Band - Is a Friend? ever released on CD? Had the LP like 30+ years ago. Long since gone. Haven't thought about them in about the same amount of time.
    I have it on a Japanese edition that I bought in the early 90s. Sounds great, imo.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    Some nifty twin guitar work there!
    Exactly - Their first album is really good !

  13. #38
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    Iron Butterfly's first 4 albums (Before Metamorphosis)

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers
    he also recorded an album with Graham Bown

    And since BA and Piblokto dated from 69 to 71, he was first writing lyrics for Jack Bruce (both in Cream and his solo albums) before starting his own bands... and he had some Colosseum links via Dick Heckstall-Smith

    Graham Bond, and you are correct!

    Pete also recorded one single,"Flying Hero Sandwich"/"My Last Band" with Gentle Giant drummer,John 'Pugwash' Weathers.
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  15. #40
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    Great list. Thanks for reposting

  16. #41
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bytor View Post
    Great list. Thanks for reposting
    Your welcome!

    Years of listening there.
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  17. #42
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Just revisited Pete Brown and Piblokto!, Thousands on a Raft (1970)

    A stronger (and longer) album than their previous effort, Things May Come and Things May Go but the Art School Dance Goes on Forever, but with the same artsy/jazzy approach.

    The band sounds tighter as does the production, albeit slightly.

    Two long jam tunes worth mentioning (Highland song & If Only They Could See Me Now parts 1 & 2)feature some above average guitar and organ/piano playing make up half the album!

    Although the standout track for me is the beautiful ballad Station Song Platform Two.

    It has a strong Gilgamesh/Hatfield and the North style that seems to scream Canterbury.

    Check it out:

    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashratom View Post
    Mogrooves put together a great list of early 1970s progressive oriented music. Kudos to him, as it's an excellent selection of music to check out (I own just about everything in it myself). To get into what is precisely "proto" or not, I'd rather jump off a bridge than have that debate. To me, I see a great mix of Krautrock, psychedelic, progressive rock, and yep, what is generally known as proto-prog, though the definition of such is hazy at best. There's some overlap here, but not total coverage, to a list I put together a few years ago, but with a specific female vocal slant. Including Room - Pre-Flight... so probably worth checking out if looking for similar sounds... https://rateyourmusic.com/list/ashra...female_vocals/

    Great list Tom!

    There's a few there I haven't heard.

    Julian"s Treatment and Mad Curry top my list !
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  19. #44
    I would certainly suggest Blonde on Blonde as a proto prog band...

  20. #45
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    True "proto" is really hard to quantify - in some ways harder than full-on "prog". To me, it involves both a sense of infinite possibilities, and an unpolished quality (at least compared to later "prog"). But those are, as S.S. says, two sides of the same coin: the experimentalism leads to over-reaching of a dozen kinds, and to a willingness to forgive oneself for trying too hard to transcend one's own abilities. The commonest form of that is probably recording and releasing improvisations by musicians who don't have the chops to even be poor jazz musicians, but there are many kinds of not-quite-successes.

  21. #46
    A title I'm really missing on the list (there are several, of course, but this one kinda shines) is the Motherlight album by Bobak,Jons,Malone. If anyone had played me that record now and told me it was some current hipster act doing the "retro" thing, I'd might just believe them. There's even some friggin' near-motorik drumming going on:

    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  22. #47
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    ^ My favorite British Psych album, which admittedly does have some Prog-Rock touchstones peeking out now and then. (Might be why I favor it.)
    "If you want to see the true nature of humanity, just look at the internet."

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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    Great list Tom!

    There's a few there I haven't heard.

    Julian"s Treatment and Mad Curry top my list !
    Thanks Chris. Unfortunately the Mad Curry has yet to find its way onto a legitimate CD (plenty of boots though). There is a legit vinyl press though on Wah Wah (Spain) if interested. Oh, and be sure to avoid the Julian's Treatment Plus CD on See For Miles, if you want to get both on one CD. They left off the best track from the Julian Jay Savarin album!

  24. #49
    Bachdenkel
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  25. #50
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    ^ For fans of proto prog, I highly recommend Linos radio show The Waiting Room every Friday morning from 10-12

    http://cfmu.msumcmaster.ca/
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

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