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Thread: Why weren't Genesis big in the 70's ?

  1. #1

    Why weren't Genesis big in the 70's ?

    When prog ruled the world 70-75, why didn't Genesis break out of the cult circuit ? I recently scanned thru some old Sounds magazines from that period & they were playing small theatres, colleges and having to do double headers with the likes of Lindisfarne ! The big three of Yes ,ELP & Floyd on the other hand were selling out arenas & football stadiums !
    Thoughts please !

  2. #2
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Because they were less coventional and less rawk then the others. There was very little to "latch" onto for an average listener IMO.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    Because they were less coventional and less rawk then the others. There was very little to "latch" onto for an average listener IMO.
    Spot on, I think. Like their two closest comparisons in the league of "classic symph", VdGG and GGiant, Genesis were considered fundamentally different and arguably too "artsy" (or even "sissy" ) for the common fan. Interestingly, all three of them experienced huge success in Italy years before many folks took any particular note of them in the UK. And Genesis didn't break truly big in their homeland either until Gabriel had left (whereas those two other mentioned never actually did, staying confined to larger audiences in Italy, France and Canada).
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
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    combine progressive music with the costumes of the lead singer and I think a lot of people had a hard time warming up to them. I think they were their worst critics too. Phil was never pleased with anything they did with Peter. He was always dissing the production and the compositions esp. The Battle Of Epping Forest,he publicly stated that song was a mistake and should never have been on Selling England By the Pound because it was all over the map.

    Every album sold more and that's a fact,We Can't Dance had at least 3 singles and Invisible Touch had maybe 6. The simpler their music became the richer they got. The Gabriel era fans jumped ship in droves and the band didn't even notice or give a rat's ass. Selling Genesis By The Pound was more like it.

  5. #5
    There are times when artists can be too original for an audience to appreciate. Genesis, especially the Gabriel years, was always a creature made up of musicians and songwriters who wanted to do as they pleased even when trying to put out work they imagined was popular. The driving force behind the music of Genesis was always Tony Banks and I have never seen him as a person willing to do anything any other way than his own way. If you're someone like that, a person whose muse is himself, the work you put out is going to be incredibly original but quite often a bit off-kilter from what a general audience expects or is looking for.

    For every Beatles who were able to tap into and even guide the zeitgeist of a musical era, there are innumerable artists that can't quite land in the right groove at the right time if ever and are relegated to somewhat cult status. The Gabriel Genesis is this sort of band. As the years have progressed, the appreciation for what they have been doing has increased. But talk to a young music listener (and I don't mean young prog listener), they have probably never heard of Genesis and have probably never heard anything that remotely sounds like early Genesis. I don't think they'd know what to make of it if they did.

    Has the "legend" of Genesis grown over the years? Yes, to a point. But the era of the band we would consider prog, Trespass through Wuthering, is still enshrined in cult status.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Rand Kelly View Post
    Phil was never pleased with anything they did with Peter. He was always dissing the production and the compositions esp. The Battle Of Epping Forest,he publicly stated that song was a mistake and should never have been on Selling England By the Pound because it was all over the map.
    I never heard that. I must agree with him though. I never liked that track. Of course, I believe "More Fool Me" was a mistake as well. Or at least, it was a mistake to put it on the album. It did give Phil some experience singing lead vocal. At least he got better later on.

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    Genesis must have been fairly big in the UK. All their albums from "Foxtrot" onward charted very well. SEBTP made it to #3. Genesis may have been a "cult" band in America in the 70s but they did quite well elsewhere as others have noted.

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    I also do not recall Collins being that critical - all the members of the band have been open to discussing both their strengths and weaknesses as a band - so absent some credible sources, I think it is not true.

  9. #9
    I can tell you that GENESIS was huge in the NYC area in the early 70s. Yes, not followed by the masses but every concert would be instantly sold out. Probably because there were just so many people in the area but a GENESIS concert was a "happening" back in the day. WNEW really promoted this band in the area and I remember the TOYS for TOTS concert they sponsored and GENESIS headlined the concert (and WNEW played the concert live) back in 72 or 73 (I forget the year but it was pre SEBTP but post FOXTROT).

    I miss those days.

    Jim

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Rael View Post
    Genesis must have been fairly big in the UK. All their albums from "Foxtrot" onward charted very well. SEBTP made it to #3. Genesis may have been a "cult" band in America in the 70s but they did quite well elsewhere as others have noted.
    I think "fairly big" is an accurate assessment; they remained not only a cult band but a cult favorite in the UK up until ATotT. Those charting albums spent quite some time there before eventually reaching silver status, but at the same time the band's credentials as live act were soaring. A significant point of interest is that Genesis later became the key target of UK's punk scene when that "rebellion" escalated; of course, Floyd, Tull, Yes and ELP (as well as the "prog-influenced" art-rock groups like ELO, Queen, Supertramp and 10CC) were scapegoats as well, but for some reason Genesis at one point appeared particularly exposed. Quite possibly because they embodied the most serious and self-consciously "pretentious" tendency of progressive rock as purpoted art form, and because of the fact that they had kept a reputation of integrity through their adherence to cult stardom before recently reaching full-blown success. And we all know that the band essentially never became the same after that.

    There's a somewhat similar story with Pink Floyd in their early days (1967-73); all of their albums charted nicely as well, still the band continued touring college gymnasiums, open air festivals, clubs and the odd 2000-seater hall. Yet they were definitely famous cult faves of the UK underground.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jubal View Post
    I never heard that. I must agree with him though. I never liked that track. Of course, I believe "More Fool Me" was a mistake as well. Or at least, it was a mistake to put it on the album. It did give Phil some experience singing lead vocal. At least he got better later on.
    I know I heard it somewhere. maybe it was Genesis-A History vhs tape I have. Or it was a rag like Melody Maker or Circus. It's hard for me to recall details of when/where but I know I didn't make that up. More Fool Me I have no problem with. I think what Steve plays on that is acoustic heaven. His tuning is bizarre for that song. I also love The Battle Of Epping Forest....it's a PROG song there's no mistake about it. I also agree about the ELP advantage of having major bands to exit. CSN did it here too,coming from huge bands like The Byrds,Buffalo Springfield and The Hollies. Yes was in the same bag as Genesis as they were completely unknown when they hit the scene.

  12. #12
    Recently Resurrected zombywoof's Avatar
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    Quite an interesting thread. I never knew that Genesis weren't huge in the 70s.

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    Member TheH's Avatar
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    Genesis had a very bad start with their debut being shelved under religious music (cause of the cover and title).
    Later one they where widley regarded as a folk band.

    Also I think they where a bunch of to nice guys, which is not a bad thing at all, but doen't help building up a rock star image.

    There music was more a sit down and listen deeply thing, rather than dancing wildly to a guy stabbing his organ with knives.

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    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rand Kelly View Post
    More Fool Me I have no problem with. I think what Steve plays on that is acoustic heaven. His tuning is bizarre for that song.
    I believe "More Fool Me" is only Mike playing.

    As for "Epping Forest", you are right that Phil has pointed out its flaws, but then so has the entire band. It's pretty common knowledge nowadays that the words for that song were written separately and then sung overtop of the already existing backing track, and they didn't quite fit. All five members seem to be in agreement that the music was very strong and the lyrics were great - some of Peter's best up to that point - but the two did not fit together properly, which is why Pete not only sounds like he's constantly trying to 'catch up' with the music but why he was out of breath so often singing it live on the SEBTP tour (didn't help that his head was wrapped in a stocking ). Phil has said that if they had more time, they could have worked it out but in those days you recorded your parts and that was that.

    Personally I like the song a lot, but only because I know it so well that I can overlook its flaws.
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  15. #15
    I interviewed Steve Hackett last November, and when we were talking about the 40th anniversary of Foxtrot, he spoke about how Genesis never got much radio support until "I Know What I Like." No doubt that had something to do with it, too.
    Progtopia is a podcast devoted to interviewing progressive rock, metal, and electronic artists from the past and present, featuring their songs and exclusive interviews. Artists interviewed on the show have included Steve Hackett, Sound of Contact, Larry Fast, Circus Maximus, Anubis Gate, Spock's Beard, and many more. http://progtopia.podomatic.com See you in a land called Progtopia!

  16. #16
    Even the Genesis fans of that time where a funny lot & deserted the band in their droves when they toured The Lamb!
    Whilst it was different from what they had done before it was still prog bliss !
    Where as Yes & Pink Floyd fans in particular embraced everything they did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zombywoof View Post
    Quite an interesting thread. I never knew that Genesis weren't huge in the 70s.
    yep, news to me too!

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    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
    Even the Genesis fans of that time where a funny lot & deserted the band in their droves when they toured The Lamb!
    Whilst it was different from what they had done before it was still prog bliss !
    Where as Yes & Pink Floyd fans in particular embraced everything they did.
    I don't know if that's entirely true. Yes fans were pretty divided on Tales, for example.

    Genesis in the early days were not exactly known for 'rockin' live shows. They were excellent live, of course, but one had to accept that it was going to be a lot of tinkling twelve-strings and strange costumes, with the songs telling very English stories. As opposed to, say, Keith Emerson's showmanship, the blazing playing of Yes, or the stoned mystery of Pink Floyd.

    Gabriel has said that they seemed to break through easier in the 'tougher, working-class cities' where concert-goers were looking for a bit of escapism.
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    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
    When prog ruled the world 70-75, why didn't Genesis break out of the cult circuit ? I recently scanned thru some old Sounds magazines from that period & they were playing small theatres, colleges and having to do double headers with the likes of Lindisfarne ! The big three of Yes ,ELP & Floyd on the other hand were selling out arenas & football stadiums !
    Thoughts please !
    In the 70s, radio airplay was very important to breaking bands big in the USA. Genesis didn't get a lot of radio airplay in NE Ohio, even though they were probably more popular here than most places in the USA. They didn't get anything close to heavy airplay here until FYFM. I would guess that the suits thought that Gabriel-era Genesis was too English and too eccentric for American audiences, thus the A&R men didn't push them to radio.
    Another way to break big then was constant touring. However, the USA is quite large, and Charisma wasn't a rich label, so that wasn't a terribly practical option.
    Much of the fan base was devoted, and articles in Circus confirm that, but the fan base was not large, comparatively speaking.

  20. #20
    Well if Tales did divide divide Yes fans it didn't impact on their pulling power as a live drawer unlike Genesis !

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    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
    Well if Tales did divide divide Yes fans it didn't impact on their pulling power as a live drawer unlike Genesis !
    Can you supply a source? I recall reading about some fans grumbling, but not a decrease in attendance at concerts in late '74, '75.

  22. #22
    [QUOTE=moecurlythanu;41454]Can you supply a source? I recall reading about some fans grumbling, but not a decrease in attendance at concerts in late '74,

    Many Lamb shows were cancelled due to poor ticket sales...wasnt the very last show even played to an half empty auditoriam ?
    Last edited by Rufus; 01-27-2013 at 10:50 AM.

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    Member Vic2012's Avatar
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    My only recollection of Genesis in the 70s was seeing the album "Genesis Live" in a store. I wasn't buying a lot of albums back then so I steared clear of art/rock. I was aware of what was going on though. Like I mentioned in another thread, YES was a household name in the early 70s. In Jr. High lot's of kids wore YES t-shirts. I was more than aware of prog (we called it art/rock back then). When Genesis became popular, mainstream in the 80s I wasn't sure if it was the same Genesis that I remembered from seeing that album cover. Around the mid-80s when Peter Gabriel was doing videos on MTV I had no idea who he was, or that he was a founder/member of Genesis. In the late 90s when I started getting into prog I bought a random Genesis album (a cassette actually) that I found at a Best Buy for 4 bucks. The album was Trespass. It's still one of my favorite Genesis albums today.

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    Member TheH's Avatar
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    Some of the Lamb tour happend before the album hit the streets or was out there just for a few days.
    So many fans were quite baffeld when they where hit with Lamb instead of what they where expecting from the show.

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