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Thread: What ‘IF” albums you don’t like by a top prog band would have been released by ..

  1. #1

    What ‘IF” albums you don’t like by a top prog band would have been released by ..

    a band that have nothing in common with your beloved band, lets say GB ( generic band), how would you rate it?
    Does your perception of the album change?


    Yes - 90125 is a 3.5 star album, under yes there is no way this hits top spots but .....
    GB - 90125 is a 5 star for me

    Genesis - Duke, a 3.5 star album....
    GB - Duke, 5 star album, band would be top notch



    What are your "IF" ...

  2. #2
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    I'd go with Tormato. Despite the recent thread with lots of Tormato love, it's pretty divisive, and a lot of that has to do with it being Yes and whether it measures up to previous work.

    If GB does Tormato I think it gets viewed as a quirky if uneven album.

    However, Love Beach and Giant for a Day would still suck by any band.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grandinq View Post
    I'd go with Tormato. Despite the recent thread with lots of Tormato love, it's pretty divisive, and a lot of that has to do with it being Yes and whether it measures up to previous work.

    If GB does Tormato I think it gets viewed as a quirky if uneven album.

    However, Love Beach and Giant for a Day would still suck by any band.
    True but I'd take giant for a day over love beach any day of the week


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    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by begnagrad View Post
    a band that have nothing in common with your beloved band, lets say GB ( generic band), how would you rate it?
    Does your perception of the album change?
    For me, it's almost the exact opposite of your experience. In virtually any case I can think of, I doubt I'd even bother rating or really even listening to to some of these albums if they weren't done by bands I had such a strong history with.

    GfaD, Love Beach and post Works ELP, post-W&W Genesis, post Drama Yes? I gave these albums a shot solely based on my love of the band's previous work. None of it clicked with me, and I don't think it having been done by another band would raise these albums in my estimation one bit. In fact I've long held that had 90125 or Asia not had the connections with Yes/KC/ELP, had they been done by "generic band," then those albums would never be discussed here. Same is largely true of post W&W Genesis, though ATTWT and Duke might get some occasional mention. Same is largely true of post Stormwatch Tull, and is almost surely true of post Interview GG.

    The only thing seemingly keeping many of these albums on anyone's radar is their association with past glories (Genesis and 90125 being the exceptions). Had they been done by other bands, they would be invisible and the history of "Prog" would look pretty different. IMO.

    Bill

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    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    ^ This. No one would ever, ever had heard In the Hot Seat.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Fracktured View Post
    True but I'd take giant for a day over love beach any day of the week
    and I'd take Giant For A Day over Civilian any day of the week.

  7. #7
    Yup, if that GTR album had been made by Univers Zero it would've been absolutely stellar.

    Just figure this with pipe organ, harmonium and harpsichord, cello, viola, bassoon, a bittu bass and guitar and a possessed battery.


    Fuchs, I change my mind; this'd be just as awesomely fantastic no matter who and on what it was performed.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
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  8. #8
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Im with Sputnik on this one.
    Ian

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    Member TheH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    Im with Sputnik on this one.
    Seconded. Many albums praised here just live through all the love build by other albums of those bands before.

    Just imagine H&E as a debut by any unknown band, any thread about this album would have died after 3 posts or so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by begnagrad View Post
    What are your "IF" ...
    FZ - "Waka/Jawaka"

    A 5 star album that I just don't care for. A less than perfect generic band production could possibly appeal....i doubt.

  11. #11
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    Yup, if that GTR album had been made by Univers Zero it would've been absolutely stellar.
    No, the point is that if whatever somewhat disappointing avant prog album you have problems with was instead released by GTR as a 2nd album, you might love it and think "Wow, GTR really reached with this album!"

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    No, the point is that if whatever somewhat disappointing avant prog album you have problems with was instead released by GTR as a 2nd album, you might love it and think "Wow, GTR really reached with this album!"
    Jed, I did get the point - but somehow your scenario seems a little bit unlikely nonetheless.

    It's as with the comment I've produced on a couple of occasions when encountering Holocaust deniers, myself being a historian n'all; "Well, you know, Brazil doesn't exist either! Look at the evidence! There's just no single one piece of detail you can hold up to *MY* personal scrutiny of things to make me believe there's a Brazil, and anyway I've already decided and created a five-hour YouTube flick called 'The Brazil Hoax'!" Point being that "good music" somehow equals the futile concept of "truthful perception". If GTR were to jump up on stage and strum out "La Faulx", I probably wouldn't like it; I'd be puzzled, but I'd dislike what I heard.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  13. #13
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    For me, it's almost the exact opposite of your experience. In virtually any case I can think of, I doubt I'd even bother rating or really even listening to to some of these albums if they weren't done by bands I had such a strong history with.

    GfaD, Love Beach and post Works ELP, post-W&W Genesis, post Drama Yes? I gave these albums a shot solely based on my love of the band's previous work. None of it clicked with me, and I don't think it having been done by another band would raise these albums in my estimation one bit. In fact I've long held that had 90125 or Asia not had the connections with Yes/KC/ELP, had they been done by "generic band," then those albums would never be discussed here. Same is largely true of post W&W Genesis, though ATTWT and Duke might get some occasional mention. Same is largely true of post Stormwatch Tull, and is almost surely true of post Interview GG.

    The only thing seemingly keeping many of these albums on anyone's radar is their association with past glories (Genesis and 90125 being the exceptions). Had they been done by other bands, they would be invisible and the history of "Prog" would look pretty different. IMO.

    Bill
    Well, I get your point, and I'd like to think that it would not change much about how good/bad the music is, but maybe how I see or regard it (from a different angle/PoV)

    If a second rate bands of those later 70's like Starcastle did second rate Yes or Kansas albums , and many of us (not me, though) and get plenty of love.
    Soooooo, if Lust Bitch had been done by complete unknowns, yes, it's likely that it would've gone unnoticed then, but would maybe still find some kind of public as Cathedral, Pentwater, Mirthrandir (for ex), would you not think/feel??
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  14. #14
    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Soooooo, if Lust Bitch had been done by complete unknowns, yes, it's likely that it would've gone unnoticed then, but would maybe still find some kind of public as Cathedral, Pentwater, Mirthrandir (for ex), would you not think/feel??
    There are perhaps a few albums, like Tormato, Duke, The Missing Piece, and yes, maybe Love Beach which do have perhaps enough "Progginess" that a few desperate Prog fans would probably consider them sort of one-off "lost classics" on the order of a Pentwater, or maybe a bit better in a couple of cases. But these are absolutely the most "Proggy," and often among the very best of the latter and lesser works of the big name 70s Prog Bands. I still think these albums get a HUGE boost from having been done by the big name bands, but yeah, if these had been done by an unknown they might reach "oddity" status in the Prog scene, possibly a bit better than that.

    But I strongly doubt that albums like GFaD, Civilian, most post Stormwatch (or perhaps post A) Tull, most post W&W Genesis, 90125, Big Generator, Talk, OYE, The Ladder and the last two "Yes" albums (Magnification might get some props if for no other reason the use or orchestra), or post Love Beach ELP (and even that one is debatable, as are Works I & II save a few songs) would come up at all here had they not been done by big name 70s Prog bands. The Asia albums has three Proggy tracks, the rest is pop pap on the order of Loverboy and Richard Marx. Would it be considered a "lost Prog gem" had it been done by some other band? I highly doubt it.

    You mentioned Kansas, and I'm not sure anything after PoKR would get any mention here at all had it not been done by Kansas. I even doubt the third Starcastle album would get any attention here had it not been done by Starcastle. So I think what I'm saying applies to the vast majority of these types of albums, acknowledging there are probably a few exceptions that might slip in under the wire, as mentioned above.

    In any case, getting back to the OP, I don't believe any of these albums having been done by another band would positively impact their perception here, and on balance it would probably be diminished. I also doubt in the case of failed attempts to "go pop" that TMP, GFaD, Civilian, Love Beach, Black Moon, Hot Seat, etc. would have fared much better in the mainstream had they been done by another band unless some A&R dude (probably stoned out of his mind) decided to throw a bunch of promotional money behind one of them.

    Bill

  15. #15
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    The Asia albums has three Proggy tracks, the rest is pop pap on the order of Loverboy and Richard Marx. Would it be considered a "lost Prog gem" had it been done by some other band? I highly doubt it.



    I agree with the rest of your post too...
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TheH View Post
    Seconded. Many albums praised here just live through all the love build by other albums of those bands before.

    Just imagine H&E as a debut by any unknown band, any thread about this album would have died after 3 posts or so.
    I rather suspect that had Close to the Edge been a debut by any unknown band, any thread about the album would have died after 3 posts or so.

    Henry
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    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    I rather suspect that had Close to the Edge been a debut by any unknown band, any thread about the album would have died after 3 posts or so.
    I'm not sure I agree with this. Had CttE been a debut or a "one off" by another band, I think it would be one of those very highly touted albums, like IBdB's YS or Dun's Eros. No doubt it wouldn't get the props it gets as being part of a large catalog of band that is practically the poster child for the musical style in question. That ties into what I was saying above that all the albums by the uber-popular bands (or their former members) get a lift from that association, even the rancid albums by these bands. But I think CttE would stand out as a remarkable example of the style had it been done by another group and would still be very highly regarded in places like this.

    Bill

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    The Asia albums has three Proggy tracks, the rest is pop pap on the order of Loverboy and Richard Marx. Would it be considered a "lost Prog gem" had it been done by some other band?
    Next you'll be saying that Foreigner weren't proggy!! Do you realize who were in that band!??!

    Btw, that "Video Killed the Radio Star" would sure have garnered much appreciation in here if the members of that genius band had previously been in The Osmonds or Village People - right?
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
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  19. #19
    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    Next you'll be saying that Foreigner weren't proggy!! Do you realize who were in that band!??!

    Btw, that "Video Killed the Radio Star" would sure have garnered much appreciation in here if the members of that genius band had previously been in The Osmonds or Village People - right?

  20. #20
    I don't rate albums this way.

    The B I give 90125 would be the same if Yes released it or Foreigner.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    I'm not sure I agree with this. Had CttE been a debut or a "one off" by another band, I think it would be one of those very highly touted albums, like IBdB's YS or Dun's Eros. No doubt it wouldn't get the props it gets as being part of a large catalog of band that is practically the poster child for the musical style in question.
    I rather suspect that had Close to the Edge been a debut by any unknown band released today, any thread about the album would have died after 3 posts or so. But you're right, released back in the 1970s, it would have attracted more attention, more than your 2 examples probably.

    Henry
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    I rather suspect that had Close to the Edge been a debut by any unknown band released today, any thread about the album would have died after 3 posts or so.
    Contrafactual assessments and regards aside, I'm inclined to agree with you on this. Sad as it may be. Tastes and adherences are nowadays as much a question of habitus associations and individual identity confirmation as they are about actual musical perception through tabula rasa.

    Adolph Schickelgrüber luckily never escaped the bunker for Argentina, though - and Yes just as luckily produced CttE and hence rendered a tiny bit of reality in the world as we know it.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  23. #23
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    A fart is a fart... no matter who broke it.

  24. #24
    ^ Ah, but there are definite nuances to farts as well. Of course, a refined fart is still only a fart, but what a fart it is.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  25. #25
    Jefferson James
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    Wow. Heard of, but never actually heard GTR before. Based on this one segment of song -- is that Flea on bass? -- I'm aghast at such a blatant stab at the commercial market. I still love Howe and Hackett as musicians of course but honestly, to have consciously made the decision to go this route makes me question their musical integrity. What a fuckin' joke this is. SS, did you cut their balls off man? Thanks for this, wow. I had no clue. SHT indeed.

    I think the concept of this thread is suspect but I'll say there are bands out there now writing music as brilliant and inspired as the best from every era of music, ever, but few are listening anymore. Times change.

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