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Thread: Led Zeppelin- The Song Remains The Same

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    Led Zeppelin- The Song Remains The Same

    This live album (and film) is now 40 year old, although of course the performances are older than that (a three night stand at Madison Square Garden in 1973). So I thought it was worthy of a thread.

    I go for the 2007 version because it has more material. Concerning the songs on the original album, the Houses Of The Holy tracks are terrific- 'The Rain Song' in particular I find breathtaking, and 'No Quarter' has a jazzier feel than the studio one. 'Stairway To Heaven' is given a commanding performance. I've softened to 'Dazed And Confused', as sprawling as it is, although 'Moby Dick' will never hold any appeal.

    With the 2007 version, there was controversy over changes made to 'No Quarter', and, if you read around online, there's the mixing-and-matching Page often uses on their live albums. However, the fact that there are no less than five strong performances added offers more than adequate compensation. Incredible that classics like 'Black Dog' and 'Since I've Been Loving You' were never on the original album. 'The Ocean' was actually the encore but here is on the end of Disc 1.

    Wondering what people make of this one, all these years later...

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    This live album (and film) is now 40 year old, although of course the performances are older than that (a three night stand at Madison Square Garden in 1973). So I thought it was worthy of a thread.

    I have to be honest and say I go for the 2007 version because it has more material. Concerning the songs on the original album, the Houses Of The Holy tracks are terrific- 'The Rain Song' in particular I find breathtaking, and 'No Quarter' has a jazzier feel than the studio one. 'Stairway To Heaven' is given a commanding performance. I've softened to 'Dazed And Confused', as sprawling as it is, although 'Moby Dick' will never hold any appeal.

    With the 2007 version, there was controversy over 'No Quarter' (a bad edit and a section that was on the original album removed) which is unfortunate, and, if you read around online, there's the trickery (mixing and matching bits from various shows) Page often uses on their live albums. However, the fact that there are no less than five strong performances added offers more than adequate compensation. Incredible that classics like 'Black Dog' and 'Since I've Been Loving You' were never on the original album. 'The Ocean' was actually the encore but here is on the end of Disc 1.

    Wondering what people make of this one, all these years later...
    From what I remember, when the album was released back in 1976, nobody thought much of it. In fact, it was largely seen as a disappointment. Some of that was due to how horrid the film was, and some of it was due to the fact that Zep were in the middle of a pretty dark period in their existence. I saw them in '77, and trust me, it was more spectacle than anything else at that point. So, from the perspective that any attention received 40 years later is a good thing, I say "good for them". The 2 Page solos in the "Whole Lotta Love" medley are still the high points for me today.

  3. #3
    I can only listen to the "Rain Song" and "No Quarter" versions, nowadays.
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    Those nights at the garden weren't exactly the best nights of the tour. Though I must say that "The Ocean", which was cut from the original film, is the best version I've ever heard. Pretty much everything else pales next to How the West was Won.
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    I still like it ok, but I think the live material on "How The West Was Won" mostly blows it away.

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    The only major issue of these performances for me relate to Plant's vocals...these shows clearly capture him at a transitional point. Most noticeably, he basically stays away from the high notes altogether on 'Rock And Roll'.

    I think there's not enough official live CDs for a band with such a strong reputation. On CD there are these two MSG '73 CDs, the '72 recordings for How The West Was Won, the BBC sessions and the '69 show as part of the debut remaster. That's it! Some kind of CD release of the material used on the 2003 DVD (Royal Albert Hall, Earls Court, Knebworth) would go a long way to redressing the balance.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    Those nights at the garden weren't exactly the best nights of the tour. Though I must say that "The Ocean", which was cut from the original film, is the best version I've ever heard. Pretty much everything else pales next to How the West was Won.
    I had quite a few Zep bootlegs on my old hard drive before ti died, included several shows from 73 that were much better than what was used in the film. If I remember correctly, one of those shows was Baltimore, a couple nights before the MSG run, and also apparently the location where they shot the footage of Peter Grant whining and crying about being ripped off by bootleggers outside the venue.

    I've also had a few shows from 77 pass through my hands over the years. The LA Forum shows from that tour are generally considered pretty strong. The version of No Quarter from the Listen To This Eddie bootleg is way better than the one that was in the movie.

    I think part of the problem was the band tended to vary wildly from night to night during most of their tours. They could play a run of shows where they sound like the best band in the world, then play a show where Page sounds lost (which in turn causes the rest of the band to falter). Depending on which version of the story you hear, the nights where he was lousy was either because Page was wasted or because he was in withdrawal (apparently unable to meet his connection).

    I always wondered why they didn't use any of the footage from teh Seattle show on the DVD they put about 10 or 12 years ago. Then I finally got to see it, and realized it was one of the nights where Page was obviously in a haze.

  8. #8
    On the 2007 SRTS there is a bad offbeat edit in the solo section of "No Quarter" that was in the film, but not in the original 1976 album.

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    Never owned the album but I saw the film in 1976. I knew I'd never see them live so the film sufficed. The Zeppelin DVD from 2003, the Plant/Page No Quarter thing, and O2 Arena are all the live Zeppelin I need.

  10. #10
    "How The West Was Won" is consistently better. And it has a whole acoustic section.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by pb2015 View Post
    On the 2007 SRTS there is a bad offbeat edit in the solo section of "No Quarter" that was in the film, but not in the original 1976 album.
    Yeah, the original album had a bunch better version of No Quarter on it (or so I always heard, I never actually owned the double album). Apparently some jackass (presumably Mr. I've Got To Stop Taking Valium During The Day himself) decided on the 2007 edition that the album really needed to have to the same versions as the movie.

    Conversely, in the original version of the film, there's a very noticeable edit during Whole Lotta Love, when they go into the freak out section, it's really obvious something was cut out. I noticed back in 1985 or whenever it was that MTV first aired the film. I don't know if it was like that on the album. But the last time I saw it on VH-1 Classic (after the 2007 edition came out), that transition was "smoothed over" if you know what I mean. It's still there, but I believe they cross fade the two pieces of the edit, so it's not quite as obnoxious sounding.

    I can't remember it was the Baltimore show or one of the other shows from 73 that had a great version of Whole Lotta Love where the freak out section begins with them seguing into The Crunge. They just sort of drop into the riff naturally after the chorus, and they jam around on it for a couple minutes. Then while JPJ and Bonzo continue playing The Crunge, Pagey hits the theremin, so he's doing that for a little bit over The Crunge riff, then he hits one note and holds it, and then the other two drop into the fast riff they play behind the theremin/vocal trade offs in the version in the movie, thus heralding the freak out section proper. Always thought that sounded great.

    Zep was another one of those bands where, when everyone was in the right state of mind, they could follow each other in and out of all those kind of things, and it would almost sound rehearsed. Maybe they did rehearse some of those things, but at least on the bootlegs you'd only hear it the one time. You'd think if it was a rehearsed thing, you'd hear things pop up more often

    There's a few different things like that, where they seem to have only done something once, like that stop time thing during the guitar solo on the Destroyer version of Stairway To Heaven. I've heard three or four different versions of the song from other shows directly before or after the Richfield Coliseum show, and they don't do it. I dunno if it's something they cooked up at soundcheck that afternoon (or in the dressing room just before the show). On the other hand, I remember JPJ saying in Guitar Player that he he has a faulty memory sometimes, and had to keep a piece of paper taped to the Mellotron saying, "Don't forget the Kashmir coda"), and somehow have a hard time seeing Bonzo being able to remember something that last minute arrangement tweak two or three hours later when it would occur in the show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark Elf View Post
    And it has a whole acoustic section.
    They didn't have one at these MSG shows. In fact these MSG shows seem to have been fairly short by their usual standards. By 1977 they were doing 3 hour sets, for better or worse. This included a 15 minute Page solo showcase and a 15 minute drum solo.

    I view the film as I view Ken Russell's Tommy- a mid 70s folly, emblematic of the way the music industry was at the time (big money lavished on established stars rather than developing new ones), but I'm fond of it in spite of itself. The 'fantasy sequences' are wonderfully silly, what on earth were they thinking? Page and Plant appear to have taken it completely seriously.

    The Shepperton re-shoots are a major flaw, though, they become more evident the more you watch the film IMHO. From memory, 'Whole Lotta Love' especially has bits which really don't match.
    Last edited by JJ88; 10-05-2016 at 02:55 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    They didn't have one at these MSG shows. In fact these MSG shows seem to have been fairly short by their usual standards.
    THey didn't do an acoustic set at all in 73. I always wondered about that, because I had seen pictures of them onstage playing acoustic instruments, but never understood why it wasn't in the movie, before out there was no acoustic set on that tour. If I'm not mistaken, they did an acoustic set in the very early 70's, 70 or 71, then dropped it, supposedly because drunken rock audiences didn't want to hear "acoustic" music. Story has it that Page stormed off the stage at one show becuase they audience kept chanting, "LOUDER! LOUDER!".

    After that, they did an acoustic set at the Earls Court shows in 75, and of course the US tour in 77 included an acoustic set. Not sure about 79 or 80 (though I know JPJ broke out the Andrew Manson built triple neck for Ten Years Gone in 79).

    By 1977 they were doing 3 hour sets, for better or worse. This included a 15 minute Page solo showcase and a 15 minute drum solo.
    Don't forget the 25-30 minute renditions of No Quarter, plus the acoustic set. Page would effectively have two solos each night. He'd sit down with his Danelectro and play White Summer and Black Mountain Side, before jumping up from his chair as they'd segue into Kashmir.

    Then, as a prelude to Achilles Last Stand, he'd do this ridiculous sort of noise guitar solo. I gather this is where he'd use the violin bow during that tour (since they had dropped Dazed And Confused), but mostly what you hear on the recordings I've heard is him doing this interminable thing where he's making all these rattling noises on the guitar, using what must have been one of the very first Harmonizers to shift the pitch up and down. Ther'es audience recordings where you can hear the audience getting impatient with this silliness.

    JPJ would play an extended candenza during No Quarter, starting on Fender Rhodes, then moving over to grand piano (with a bit of Page theremin bridging the gap). After a lengthy piano solo, Page and Bonzo would come back in and they'd jam for several minutes, then there would be another piano solo before JPJ switches back over to Rhodes and segues back into No Quarter. Anyone who doubts JPJ's prowess as a keyboardist has clearly never heard any of the better versions of No Quarter from 75 or 77, as he definitely proves himself to be on the same level as Emerson, Wakeman and the rest of those guys. He just didn't show it off that much onstage.

    And if Bonzo's drum solo is only 15 minutes, then that would be an improvement. There's versions of Moby Dick that go for more like a half hour!
    .



    I view the film as I view Ken Russell's Tommy- a mid 70s folly, emblematic of the way the music industry was at the time (big money lavished on established stars rather than developing new ones), but I'm fond of it in spite of itself. The 'fantasy sequences' are wonderfully silly, what on earth were they thinking? Page and Plant appear to have taken it completely seriously.
    I thought the best part, oddly was the "reality" sequence, as I like to call it, ie JPJ and Plant enjoying their time off with their families, then receiving word that they were going to have go off on tour, as JPJ notes, "Tomorrow!". Of the fantasy sequences, Bonzo's was the best, showing him hanging out with this son and drag racing. JPJ's was kinda interesting, as it depicts him as a family man who puts on a mask at night and goes around terrorizing people (presumably a deliberate allegory to his own life at the time). The other two are just too ridiculous for words. And the less said about Peter Grant's ultra superfluous Capone-wannabe bullshit trip (and indeed his presence in the film altogether), the better.

    The Shepperton re-shoots are a major flaw, though, they become more evident the more you watch the film IMHO. From memory, 'Whole Lotta Love' especially has bits which really don't match.
    There's a couple different bits where JPJ miraculously changes clothes mid song. I remember an interview he did where he was asked about that, and he said that he wore a different outfit one night because he was told they wouldn't be shooting that show. He figured, "Great, I don't have to worry about wearing the same outfit". Then he shows at MSG, and lo and behold, there's the cameras, and naturally they had to use shots where he's visible in the "wrong" outfit in the finished film.

    Also, in Whole Lotta Love, Page is seen playing two different guitars. The closeups of him during the guitar solo, he's playing a red Les Paul, which I believe was his back up at the time, but then when they go back into the third verse, he's suddenly playing his sunburst Les Paul that he usually used at the time, then if I remember correctly, he's back to playing the red one during the blues medley bit.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post

    I think there's not enough official live CDs for a band with such a strong reputation. On CD there are these two MSG '73 CDs, the '72 recordings for How The West Was Won, the BBC sessions and the '69 show as part of the debut remaster. That's it! Some kind of CD release of the material used on the 2003 DVD (Royal Albert Hall, Earls Court, Knebworth) would go a long way to redressing the balance.
    I recall reading that in the late 70's, Page was talking about doing another live album made up from the tapes he had of the band from throughout their career. I think I read he was apologetic at the time about The Song Remains The Same and how he felt he could put something together from the archive he had. But said project came to a screeching halt with someone broke into his house and stole a bunch of the tapes.

    Reportedly he was asked about it later in the 80's or 90's, and he seemed to suggest the bootleggers already had the "definitive Led Zeppelin live album" front cover.

    If you ask me, they should take the Mike Millard recordings (audience tapes of the LA Forum shows from 75 and 77) and put out a compilation from those. Either that or give Listen To This Eddie an official release (but leave Page's goofing around before Achilles Last Stand, and substitute a different version of Ten Years Gone).

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    mostly what you hear on the recordings I've heard is him doing this interminable thing where he's making all these rattling noises on the guitar, using what must have been one of the very first Harmonizers to shift the pitch up and down. Ther'es audience recordings where you can hear the audience getting impatient with this silliness.
    'We've had the guitar lesson!' to be exact. Funny how they get a pass, it's always Yes and ELP that get slagged off for the long soloing. Rarely do I find them as undisciplined, although the 1977 ELP orchestra tour was definitely heading in that direction too.

    Plant has expressed some unhappiness with the musical excess in that period. He's given the strong impression that he would have happily quit after his son's death in that year and only stayed for John Bonham. And indeed, when the latter died, that was it.

    The first Page/Plant reunion did give us Unledded, which I think is excellent.

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    The two biggest problems with the '77 tour were Plant's still healing ankle and Page's instability. The big solo pieces and the sit-down acoustic set were to get Plant off his feet. The short European tour in 1980 was stripped of solos. But Page was even more inconsistent.

    I think of of the biggest differences between the How the West was Won shows and the ones in the Garden is Plant's voice. In LA he sounds righteous but at MSG it's pretty frayed. I recall something about him getting the flu that tour but I don't remember what dates were affected.

    I read the book "What You Want is in the Limo" which chronicles the 1973 tours of Alice Cooper, Zeppelin, and the Who. Someone who saw all three said actually the Cooper band was the most consistent of the lot, rarely turning in a bad gig. Zep and the Who could have horrible nights, lead singers losing their voices, drink and drug issues, the Who's massive problems with backing tapes. But that said, on the nights they were on the later two bands hit impossible heights.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Anyone who doubts JPJ's prowess as a keyboardist has clearly never heard any of the better versions of No Quarter from 75 or 77, as he definitely proves himself to be on the same level as Emerson, Wakeman and the rest of those guys.
    Having heard dozens of versions of "No Quarter" from the '75 and '77 tours, it concerns me that you have clearly taken to smoking crack.

    Come on ...

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    JPJ's long solos are very chordal to my ears, not really anything like Emerson/Wakeman.

  19. #19
    I disliked the album rather intensely even back when I was a fanboy. I somehow think it was partly due to the MSG concerts being in support of HotH, (still) my single fave LZ record. Those 26+ minutes of "Dazed.." always struck me as some of the most tedious 70s rock music out there. "Bore'em at the Forum", wasn't that Bonham's immortalized epiphany concerning some Jethro Tull appearance involving LZ? How about "Pardon for the Garden" in relation to the latter...

    Page's use of opioids from '75 on probably contributed significantly to the decay in performance quality, I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    Those 26+ minutes of "Dazed.." always struck me as some of the most tedious 70s rock music out there.
    I actually dig this behemoth, although the quality varies between performances. There is a narrative vibe to it with a lot interesting twists.

    However, those 20+ minutes of Deep Purple's Space Truckin'... that's a tougher endurance test for me.

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    I can handle 'Dazed...' better these days, at least it's ensemble playing rather than just the one of them noodling away.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    I can handle 'Dazed...' better these days, at least it's ensemble playing rather than just the one of them noodling away.
    Yeah, but the ensemble playing seems to always lead to the same thing; Jimmy Page soloing. Maybe had he not been doing that live on every single number anyway, it would appeal to me more.

    I know some people really dig the length of Led Zeppelin's shows, but had they put together a tight 90 minute set and dialed back the overplaying on almost everything, they could have been a far more consistently interesting live act, IMO. They had such great material, but were sometimes kind of directionless with it live when it didn't need to be messed with. You listen to something like "Over The Hills And Far Away" (which admittedly is not an arrangement I really care for in the first place) when it's done live and there will likely be a point where you lose all sight of what song they are doing and where they even are.

    FTR, I dig this record for SRTS, Rain Song, Celebration Day and No Quarter. Maybe NQ is a bit rough in the vocal dept. but that a problem on the studio version anyway, so I live with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    Yeah, but the ensemble playing seems to always lead to the same thing; Jimmy Page soloing. Maybe had he not been doing that live on every single number anyway, it would appeal to me more.
    Well, maybe you have not listened to distinct live versions (especially from different tours) carefully enough:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazed_...e_performances

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    I know some people really dig the length of Led Zeppelin's shows, but had they put together a tight 90 minute set and dialed back the overplaying on almost everything, they could have been a far more consistently interesting live act, IMO. They had such great material, but were sometimes kind of directionless with it live when it didn't need to be messed with.
    Different strokes for different folks.

    I like their "directionlessness" a lot as they were one of few high-profile classic rock bands who kept the improvisational spirit in their live sets across the 70s (despite being continuously lambasted in the press), when their stylistic peers gradually followed the trend to reproduce studio music. If you gave me the choice to go back in time to 1977 to attend either Led Zeppelin's gig or Rainbow's (alternatively of Thin Lizzy, AC/DC, Scorpions or any other 2nd gen hard-rock band at their peak), I would immediately pick Zeppelin, despite Page's noticeable decline of performing powers at that time.

    All their hard-rock contemporaries did live in the improvisational department was to leave solo spots for abominable drum solos and guitar shredding, and very few dared venture into longer group improvs, similar to '77 versions of No Quarter or Ten Years Gone. I have a high appreciation for Led Zeppelin for keeping 60s free-wheeling spirit alive in the times when music industry and audience tightened the rules of the concert game. I appreciate it even if/though it was all done in the haze of drugs and alcohol.

    I have also a feeling that the persisting antipathy towards Led Zeppelin among hard-core music fans has more to do with their bombast lifestyle, sexual excesses, early plagiarism and mass popularity than their actual musical shortcomings. I mean many people often claim that Led Zeppelin were bloated, boring, self-repeating and self-indulgent live, but in the same breath they go to heap praises on Made in Japan (or numerous other recordings or acts displaying these very same characteristics) as the best live recording ever. I do not get it I am afraid.
    Last edited by Jay.Dee; 10-06-2016 at 07:33 PM.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay.Dee View Post
    Well, maybe you have not listened to distinct live versions (especially from different tours) carefully enough:
    Nope. It's just that while I enjoy some of the ensemble playing in the various versions of "Dazed & Confused," I also sometimes hear a band who just plain lacked discipline. And it was often to their detriment, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay.Dee View Post

    I have also a feeling that the persisting antipathy towards Led Zeppelin among hard-core music fans has more to do with their bombast lifestyle, sexual excesses, early plagiarism and mass popularity than their actual musical shortcomings. I mean many people often claim that Led Zeppelin were bloated, boring, self-repeating and self-indulgent live, but in the same breath they go to heap praises on Made in Japan (or numerous other recordings or acts displaying these very same characteristics) as the best live recording ever. I do not get it I am afraid.
    I'm a bigger Zep than Purple fan, but for my money Led Zeppelin were inconsistent live to an extent perhaps more severe than some of their peers. And it didn't just start in '75 or '77 as some fans might wish to believe. Listen to something like Buffalo '73. Yikes!

    But that's ok. I mean, I love the Japan '72 shows. Plant was at his worst, there are missed cues all over the place ... but the band is on edge and exciting to me. And hearing early versions of the HOTH material is tremendous.
    Last edited by JeffCarney; 10-06-2016 at 08:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    Nope. It's just that while I enjoy some of the ensemble playing in the various versions of "Dazed & Confused," I also sometimes hear a band who simple lacked discipline. And it was often to their detriment, IMO.
    Yes, they might lack "discipline" on stage. Just like Cream, Experience or almost every other 1st generation hard/power/blues-rock band that came out of the 60s. And that is precisely what has attracted me to this genre and what I sorely miss when such bands started to streamline their music to pure riffs, shreds and pounding drums. I have no use for any disciplined hard-rock, it is not how it was originally invented!

    Seven-minute long live Dazed & Confused? No thanks, I will stick to unabridged 25-minute versions!

    That's actually quite interesting how different expectations we music fans have from the same bands, or even the same compositions. I cannot forget comments on another forum about Clapton's guitar solo on What Does Love Got to Be So Sad from Derek & the Dominos' live album. The discussion focused on the different take that had swapped the original one on Live at the Fillmore reissue (of the original In Concert release). Some fans complained that on the longer "replacement" version Clapton played as if he had been high or driven too much by uncontrolled emotions, and thus lacking the discipline displayed on the originally published take.

    When I read that I said to myself: aren't emotions the best aspect of blues-rock? Upon hearing that reissue's take for the first time I immediately fell in love with it. In my opinion it contains one of the most emotional (best?) guitar solos ever. For others it is only Eric flubbing his solo part.
    Last edited by Jay.Dee; 10-06-2016 at 09:39 PM.

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