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Thread: Anyone here using Har-Bal mastering software?

  1. #1
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    Anyone here using Har-Bal mastering software?

    I have been using this software for about 5 years for "mastering" my tracks, and it is just amazing. It has a weird interface, which I have become very familiar with (they keep trying to get me to upgrade, but I love this old version so much, I dont respond)

    Anyway, in a moment of boredom, I took Side 1 of Tales from Topographic oceans (revealing science of God...) and ran it through Har-Bal, and Holy crap! It sounds like a million bucks! I wish I could post it, because the difference is absolutely amazing. You can play it after listening to somethin with decent production, like the Ladder, and it sounds equally good. I hear ereythin so much clearer and the boxy sound is almost gone. The drums sound like drums... Just incredible!

    So I am going to go on a mission to remaster all of Yes' bad sounding albums and run them through this, and update my digital versions to the new and improved sounds - and I think I'll have the best sounding collection of Yes, since Steve Wilson. From how well Revealing Science turned out, I dont think I'll have to buy the remix.

    I was amazed at how much just using a tool like Har-bal made on that song. If anyone has used it, I'd like to hear what you think of it. I'm sure there are dozens of like products around that allow you to really optimize finished songs - I'd say maximize, but these things can be overdone (cough.. Vapor Trails.. cough)

    Anyway, I wish I could post the differences, because its like you can hear every nuance in every instrument.. Jon's voice is like he is standing in the room with you. and the drums, my god, the drums... Anyway, I think I'll go through my entire catalog and find songs to use this on... I am blown away by how much better everything is. I'm looking forward to doing the entire Tales album. - and Tormato and Going for the one, and Relayer and... well, who knows. I'm sure I will find those albums, that I have hardly listened to, because they were recorded so bad, much more attention.

    I think Eddie Offord must've gone deaf. (didnt he do Tales?) Whoever mixed and mastered those Yes albums did the band no favors.

  2. #2
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    Just completed the "remaster" of Tales... and wow. I was never a big fan of sides 2 and 3, but I now hear all kinds of things I cant hear on the regular version. There is some pretty intricate brush work by Alan White that I've never heard before, At least I never noticed it before... Wow Alan White.... Using Brushes... Wow. Whodda Thunk?

  3. #3
    What file format do these come out as?

    I sure would like to hear what you are talking about....I LOVE Tales and am dying to hear your output.

  4. #4
    Member Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    Is there a Steven Wilson preset?
    <sig out of order>

  5. #5
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    There seems to be...

    I render them as 360 Mp3's but it can do Ogg or Wav or many other types.

    Is there someplace I can post a sample? It really has been amazing - I mean life altering... As far as Yes listening goes. I also did it on the remaster of Going for the one, and its not quite as effective with the remastered version, but its still significantly clearer. I noticed the remasters kind of "mush" up the mix a bit. If I could get the non-remastered versions, I think this software could really kill it.

    If I posted the new versions anywhere that I know I would get nicked as a pirate. And that - I am not willing to do. But If I could post a brief side by side comparison - Trust me... You would be just floored. I am working on Relayer now. I have the un-remastered version of that and its still making what was almost unlistenable (to me) into something amazing and far more interesting - I often thought that in some sections of these poorly produced albums, Yes was just masterbating, but these new versions reveal a whole new deeper texture that for me has been almost beyond belief. - Like Alan Whites brush work - other things jump out that I never noticed before. Jon's voice is just amazing, when it originally sounded like he was singing in a box.

    I think the monitors in the studio where it was originally mastered were bad. I have Yamaha's new version of NS10's and it sounds so bad on them, they cannot have possibly used them for this kind of mix. I suspect they used something like BOSE speakers, that color the sound so badly you cannot trust the sound. It would be interesting to hear what they actually used. I would also be interested in hearing what Steve Wilson uses in his mixes as well.

    I do believe there is a "Steve Wilson" setting - though it isnt called that. There are no default settings, so I have to customize each song, but there is a pattern emerging that I could probably name "the Steve Wilson setting" (saved as a "filter"). When I started using this software years ago, I wasn't too impressed, but after 5 years, I know this thing inside and out, and the results are (in all humility) magnificent. I wish my own music was good enough to benefit from it. (it does sound much better but there is only so much help it can give) With Yes, they are masters. I am a hack.

    If anyone has a suggestion on how I can do it, I would love to share this - I need to share this.

  6. #6
    ....in hushed tones.....you could always put them in Dropbox and send me (us) a link......


    I checked out their website and watched a few vids....I could definitely hear the difference but it seems to be a lengthy trial-and-error sort of effort. But I guess after you get the hang of "shaping" the EQ waves that it gets easier as time goes on.

    I'll have to ask my musician-friends if any of them have used this.

  7. #7
    Member Koreabruce's Avatar
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    I'm guessing it adds some compression + some kind of global eq enhancement ala the old "aural exciter" treatment.

  8. #8
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    Yes, thats exactly it. but I like the results. Ive got a 230mb zip with the entire album on it. If anyone wants to give it a listen, let me know whee I can park it.

    I say this with the obvious understanding that you already possess a LEGAL and lawful copy of TFTO already.

    I'm not saying that no one else has the ability to do this on their own, but I'm telling you , if you have ever wished to hear a much cleaned up version of this album, this is such an opportunity. Ive probably listened to this in its entirety now 8 or 9 times. I cant stop. It is an absolute masterpiece. Even the noodling parts hold my attention because there is stuff I hadnt heard before - or paid attention to. Squire is just a monster composer. His bass parts are amazing. I never appreciated that before because the sound of the album.

    I have also tried to do the same with going for the one with limited results. I think the re-master actually clogged up the low end and the results are less than I'd like. I may try to get a non-remastered version to try it.

    I am amazed at the clarity this software produced on Tales... It is truly worth a listen. I tried to focus on getting the voice and the drums to sound natural (removing overtones and midrange boosts) Its obvious that the original mix was done on speakers that were bereft of any low-mid precision. Now Andersons voice sounds natural, like he's standing in the room with you, and the toms have a very natural tone to them, once again like its someone hitting it the room.

    Some may not like it, but I always disliked TFTO because it was mixed/mastered so poorly. Turns out it wasnt the mix, it was the overall tone of the master. Its amazing how you hear the stereo spectrum shift... sometimes the Bass gets moved around in the stereo spectrum. Something I had never noticed before. Same with all the instruments and voices. You hear how complex the mix actually was, instead of trying to imagine it sounding right. It actually IS right (In my opinion)

    You say its just "typical" but I'm telling you, with Tales, this is just what it needs. I have tried to do the same with Zeppelin and I'm playing around with other older albums, and its much much more interesting - plus its fun. Last night I did Stairway - and I am hearing much much more that I ever had before. Some of the results are not that great, but I suspect I'll get some good results on Zepp 1,2,3 HOTH and PGrafitti...

    The fun part is that I get to become far more familiar with my favorite poorly produced music. Good results or not. I think software like this is an audiophile's dream (which I am NOT). It not only allows you to "tune" the music to your liking. It also allows you to hear stuff you would never hear in a normal mix. In My Humble Opinion..

  9. #9
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    I cannot stop listening to Tales!

    PM me and I'll send you a dropbox link:

  10. #10
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    I have a dropbox location, so let me know if you want the link. Its amazing how much better this sounds. I havent applied the hiss reduction to the version, cause I dont think its that bad, but its definitely there. Its also there in the original.

    I also Ran Zepp 4 through this, and at the very beginning of Going to California there are two deep breaths that I've never heard before. Very Obvious. I cant tell who it is, but I never heard it on the original before. Something the software really seems to bring out. With Zepp, I have found that more care seems to have been paid in the mastering. The low end seems to be pretty tight, despite the overall sound. I get quite a bit more punch and clarity especially on Zepp 1. I'm looking forward to doing 2 and 3 I think 3 will really improve in the same way that Tales did.

  11. #11
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    I think I have responded to all the PM requests, but if you haven't received a link. let me know.

    I'm anxious for any feedback you have. Even though for me it sounds fantastic - and others opinions aren't going to change that. I'm going through my collection now and having more or less really good results. Its been a blast, and I get to really listen and rediscover music that I thought I'd already known. Just the process of "cleaning it up" has been a joyful one. I'm dying to compare Steve Wilsons version to this. - More reasons to listen to Yes (as if I need one)

  12. #12
    Member Koreabruce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yodelgoat View Post
    I think I have responded to all the PM requests, but if you haven't received a link. let me know.
    I didn't receive the response yet.

  13. #13
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    Wow, sorry about that Bruce. I've sent a link now. let me know if you didn't get it yet. It should definitely be there.

  14. #14
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    Ive started getting responses back - So far Har-Bal is getting a thumbs up.

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    Member Koreabruce's Avatar
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    Thanks man! I got it and have given it a cursory listen while doing an A/B comparisons to the original.

    Positives: It definitely sounds clearer than the original. The bass is also hugely accentuated, so Chris Squire's presence is really FELT as well as heard.

    Negatives: What I wrote in my first post in this thread appears to hold true. This adds compression, which of course is why subtleties stand out the way they do and the bass is much more to the forefront. Furthermore, the "aural exciter" processing renders it all sounding excessively bright (to my ears). I have to admit here that this poses a bit of a dilemma as part of me *wants* to hear it more clearly like this - must be the 55-year-old-ears that ring with mild tinnitus that are informing that thought! - but another part thinks the original just sounds more natural. Tales was never an overly bright-sounding album to begin with, so I'll give you plus points on improving the clarity.

    The bass, on the other hand, is a little too overwhelming. Granted, the original lacked real punch, but the bass sound of this version, while certainly deeper, is also quite a bit muddier. That I find a little off-putting. However, on balance you have succeeded in making me want to re-listen to this, and I find I'm enjoying the experience more for some reason, so... I guess that translates to success for Yodelgoat's efforts! Thanks again for sending this to me.

  16. #16
    (copied from my PM with YG)......

    YG, Well, I just finished listening to it all. (with headphones)

    Disclaimer: I always thought TfTO was perfect to begin with...

    The main thing I noticed was the crisper, clarity of the back-ground/harmony vocals...they REALLY shined through !

    I didn't hear any "new" musical bits...just better overall clarity and sharpness to the overall mix.

    I like it.

    Hey, Who needs Steve Wilson when we have THIS !!

    Thanks for sharing....I think I need to buy this SW...it will work wonders on my music.........Harold

  17. #17
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koreabruce View Post
    Thanks man! I got it and have given it a cursory listen while doing an A/B comparisons to the original.

    Positives: It definitely sounds clearer than the original. The bass is also hugely accentuated, so Chris Squire's presence is really FELT as well as heard.

    Negatives: What I wrote in my first post in this thread appears to hold true. This adds compression, which of course is why subtleties stand out the way they do and the bass is much more to the forefront. Furthermore, the "aural exciter" processing renders it all sounding excessively bright (to my ears). I have to admit here that this poses a bit of a dilemma as part of me *wants* to hear it more clearly like this - must be the 55-year-old-ears that ring with mild tinnitus that are informing that thought! - but another part thinks the original just sounds more natural. Tales was never an overly bright-sounding album to begin with, so I'll give you plus points on improving the clarity.

    The bass, on the other hand, is a little too overwhelming. Granted, the original lacked real punch, but the bass sound of this version, while certainly deeper, is also quite a bit muddier. That I find a little off-putting. However, on balance you have succeeded in making me want to re-listen to this, and I find I'm enjoying the experience more for some reason, so... I guess that translates to success for Yodelgoat's efforts! Thanks again for sending this to me.
    I'm a bass player and I've had a Rick, so perhaps I'm a little biased towards hearing it. I tried to make the bass sound like I used to play it. I also like a beefier kick, so its all that as well. Try bringing down the 80 hz quite a bit and you'll get some of that old Tales sound back. Yes, I was not concerned about "preserving the original intended sound" because for me, the original sound sucked. I'll stick by my mix, but you may be right about it being a little heavy handed. I did not shy away from using fairly heavy compression, but its nothing approaching say, Vapor trails... I pulled it up on the eq software and there is still adequate breathing space in it (in my opinion).

    Recently completed: Led Zepp 1, Physical Graffiti, 2, 4, and Yesterdays ("America" cleaned up really nice!), GFTO,

    Still to come Led Zep 3. Relayer, Tormato, Exile on Main street.... who knows what else - ELP - Brain Salad? - (If I can get past the reverb).

  18. #18
    随缘 SRS's Avatar
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    (Copied from my PM to Yodelgoat):

    Hello! Well I took my first listen of the yodelgoated Tales yesterday and let me say that beforehand I was skeptical I would hear any difference, I'm not an audiophile by any means. What I did was pull out all my CD versions of Tales (Original Atlantic in the big double cd case, Rhino remaster and Yodelgoat.) I have an hour commute home so I decided I would listen to Revealing on all of them in the same environment at the same volume. First up was the Atlantic CD which I bought probably in 1990 or so. So flat, dull and lifeless sounding, back then this was my first listen to Tales and it didn't do much for me then, I later heard it on vinyl and loved it but this CD version doesn't sound good to my ears at all. I'm shocked that seems to be the consensus choice for best sounding remaster according to this thread. That thread is before the SW remaster which I haven't heard.

    So second up was the Rhino and it sounded much better to me. Clearer, not as muddy, brighter, crisper, you can hear the backing vocals better. Really very good!

    Third up was yodelgoated, and here I did have to touch the volume down 2 digits because it was noticeably louder. But wow is it a different experience and sounds fuller, tougher, more live sounding, more all encompassing. I think all the musicians benefit , after one listen only there were parts from Steve I never noticed before.

    So to sum up I would say the Atlantic was like listening to a band play in a garage while you are sitting in the house across the street, the Rhino is like being at the house outside the garage sitting on the patio. Not bad at all, a good comfortable listen, yodelgoated is like being in the garage standing right next to the band! Good job! The hiss is only noticeable in the very quiet passages and not distracting. It is definitely a worthwhile listen and adds a lot. I'm really glad to have it. Thanks again!

  19. #19
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    Some of you have requested a copy of Tails.. I need to run it once more, as (per KoreaBruce) it is a tad on the heavy side of the low end. Gve it a couple days and I'll pm you the newer, clearer version. It still sounds really good and has turned a Yes album I've kind of avoided into one I cant stop listening to.. really interesting how much clearer the thing sounds. And in a playlist it doesn't need to have a boost of volume. It sounds more like the better produced Yes albums. (IMHO)

  20. #20
    Member hFx's Avatar
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    Thank's for letting me listen to your Har-Balled (!!?) files.

    The first impression from casual listening is that the sound is more modern and appealing, especially on every-day listening equipment like computer speakers, in the car and on mobile devices. The bass is more pronounced and, more noticeably, the highs are more prominent and seem to extend further up. The lightly squeezed dynamics furthermore contribute to a more modern recording - in fact it sounds like Yes of 90s.

    However, listening closely in the studio through monitors and studio headphones, the result is less flattering. It still give the modern "feel" with a better EQ (the original is not very enjoyable for a start). However the extended highs sounds like an exciter effect where the treble is synthesized through distorsion. As a result the treble sounds harsh and fizzling, especially emphazied in ringing metallic sounds like the bells and the 12strings.

    Note that the original does not sound better, as it is quite distorted in the upper range, but the highs are also suppressed. It will be interesting to hear the SW version, if the distorsion of the original master is less pronounced - that would be better material for Har Bal to work on.

    As for "casual mastering", my preferred tool is Izotope Ozone.
    My Progressive Workshop at http://soundcloud.com/hfxx

  21. #21
    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    THanks for the comments. I agree about the distortion, but I think that's part of Eddie Offords "tape saturation" strategy. He was really the pioneer of saturating the tapes, so as to create a kind of natural compression(and supposedly a kind of warmth) It will be interesting to hear if SW can make the highs sound truly clear.

    At least that's something I can blame it on.

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