John McLaughlin: Underrated, overrated or just about right?

[StevegSr]

Now, whether he's over/under/even rated, I don't really care too much as it's all too subjective to be having a really meaningful conversation;

Using words like underrated or overrated are just a type of a McGuffin in order to launch a discussion. Most people can respond to them as it's part of our lexicon, but it's the peripheral discussions that really interest in these threads. I enjoy to listening to other's views on the subject's music, albums, etc. Underappreciated and over appreciated could be used instead, but the result would be the same IMO.

[tormato]

"About right" for my money.

Brilliant player with boatloads of passion and reach.

Unfortunately, when speaking of his rise to fame in the original MO, these things are also true (IMO):

Lacks discipline.
Often questionable intonation.
Sometimes used absolutely awful tones.

I've always thought that those choices were what made MO so alluring with the "raw" sound that other fusion acts at the time didn't seem to have.

[Svetonio]

I'm pretty much in agreement. I still love his playing on the first three MOs and that Shakti album I've got, but I remember keeping Love Devotion Surrender on cassette bought from a fleemarket by my dad when I was little, and on returning to that after having discovered McLaughlin later I found the thing absolutely terribly self-indulgent, dull and meandering.

I presume that Zeuhlmate thinks about the early 70s McLaughlin's guitar tone per se - which is irritating to me too sometimes - not about "self-indulgent" & "meandring" [style].

[trondis23]

Except for Inner Worlds he hasn't made a bad album. His present group, 4th Dimension, has received too little attention. But they are probably the best group he ever had, and his own playing has only become better. He always writes very tuneful and often very catchy music, and I think he is one of the most interesting jazz composers. My favorites are:

Extrapolation. This is acoustic jazz with John Surman on sax, and his first solo album
My Goals Beyond: arrangements of jazz standards for acoustic guitar(s), plus some Indian inspired jams.
Birds of Fire. All albums by the first Mahavishnu is great, but this is probably the most perfect.
Shakti: A Handful of Beauty
Electric guitarist. Sums up his carrier so far, with different styles and musicians, including most of the first Mahavishnu members, Santana, Tony Williams and Jack Bruce.
Electric Dreams (One Truth band): Probably his most melodic album, and some very sexy playing from Shakti violinist L. Shankar
John McLaughlin Trio (with Trilok Gurtu): acoustic nylon string with MIDI, percussion and bass. Perfect albums.
Time Remembered: Beautiful arrangements of Bill Evans, for 6 acoustic nylon string guitars
The Promise: another multi style album with many different musicians.
The Heart of Things: Very hot jazz rock album, but more complex compositions than Mahavishnu
Industrial Zen: Jazz rock with different musicians, and some programming. His group 4th Dimension participate.
4th Dimension: They have made 4 official albums so far, plus one DVD. All are good, but perhaps the live album or the latest, Black Light, is the place to start.

[Zeuhlmate]

Yes its his tone
- I dont know if its intended, he doesnt seem to be interested in a particular personal sound. With TW thin and ugly (fender jazzmaster), with Carla Bley nice & smooth (Les Paul), With Miles warm (not sure, gibson semiacoustic?), with MO full (Les Paul, SG, and SG doubleneck), but his intonation is kind of 'off', not only bended Indian, but sometimes it sounds noisy & rude (intended, I'm sure).
Obvious when you compare the sound of Santana and his solos on ' a love supreme' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DDwvSTrpj0
I do actually prefer Johns power, but its pretty out there.
Later - on Emerald Beyond he changes amps to Mesa, and get a very distorted (and hard) but precise sound. The apparent sloppyness earlier is gone.

With Allan Holdsworth you can always identify him on his sound alone, and he has changed amps, guitar and other gear at least as much as John. Allan is after a particular sound where as John isn't - I guess.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I presume that Zeuhlmate thinks about the early 70s McLaughlin's guitar tone per se - which is irritating to me too sometimes - not about "self-indulgent" & "meandring" [style].

I assume you are presuming that I somehow misunderstood Zeuhlmate, which I didn't and which I neither left any trace of suggestion to do. What I did was add other reasons of my own for not exactly adoring McLaughlin unconditionally. I assumed this was understandable, but presumably it wasn't quite. Neither did I denote his "style" as self-indulgent or meandering (with an 'e' as sixth letter) per sé - I was specifically pointing to the Love Devotion Surrender record.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I've always thought that those choices were what made MO so alluring with the "raw" sound that other fusion acts at the time didn't seem to have.

Hm. I agree about the rawness being a positive asset with (much of) his playing with MO, but truth be told there were plenty of "raw" fusion axemen around; Lubos Andrst with Energit, Max Sunyer with Iceberg (the rawness of his playing on Coses Nostres or Sentiments is hard to beat), hell even Bill Connors scorches shred on Hymn to the Seventh Galaxy (RTF). I'd say the allegedly notorious "fusion slickness syndrome" set in somewhat later.

[Svetonio]

I assume you are presuming that I somehow misunderstood Zeuhlmate, which I didn't and which I neither left any trace of suggestion to do. (...)

It is true, shame on me, I thought that you think that Zehlmate has in mind that "meandring" [style] and so on - which is actually a pretty common thing for all fusion masters - not on McLaughlin irritating guitar tone.
Well of course you didn't left for any trace for that in your answer to Zeuhlmate, but as I was reading not one time at this forum your posts where you wrote that you're not a big fan of that kind of JR/F, it took me on the wrong path...

[BobM]

There's just something about his playing that grips me. Most of it is fusion powered, but I have indeed heard him play tenderly and with plenty of feeling and emotion. I own a lot of his music, and still, I reach for any new album he puts out. I still find his ideas and style enjoyable.

[Svetonio]

For example, this is a pretty raw fusion here, but even as such, it's, to these ears, a more "smooth" guitar tone than McLaughlin's.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Well of course you didn't left for any trace for that in your answer to Zeuhlmate, but as I was reading not one time at this forum your posts where you wrote that you're not a big fan of that kind of JR/F, it took me on the wrong path...

Well, I guess that clears up matters entirely. No shame to worry about.


FWIW; always a fan of fusion from before the ages of Spirogyra, Lee Ritenour, Mezzoforte and Shakatak. Could never follow that trail.

[florentine pogen]

"My Goals Beyond" is the best album he ever put out. It encapsulates everything I hold sacred about the beauty of music.

[Dana5140]

It's an odd question to ask if he is underrated. In what way? In general, he is considered one of the greatest guitarists of our generation, and has been held in high esteem for more than 40 years. He is one of the most technically gifted guitarists to ever live. Whether or not we like any given iteration of his music seems irrelevant; he has played at a high level for at least 2 generations. And in terms of his technical ability, just watch one of his training videos.

I sort of see- and admit I could be wrong- a generational divide here. I grew up with him. I first saw him live with the Tony Williams Lifetime and barely knew who the short-haired guitarist was, but when he began playing it completely blew my mind. His early solo albums were great, no more better than My Goals Beyond. And when Mahavishnu hit- and I saw them 3 times- it was like nothing anyone had ever heard- the volume, speed, fury and ability. While I do not like his later albums as much as I do the earlier ones, all seem to have good music on them. His endless quest for change is akin to Coltrane, who always was restless about his music. McLaughlin has run through Indian music, Spanish mucis, classical music, fusion, rock, and so much more and in his 70s is still creating.

I've seen him 8 times over my life.

My answer to the question? Just right.

[walt]

I'm still hopeful(but not holding my breath)that listenable tapes of McLaughlin's short mid/late 60's partnership with German vibes/flute/bass clarinet player Gunter Hampel will surface.

[Shadow]

He is the best and has managed to survive quite comfortably without selling out to rock or pop.

[Gizmotron]

"My Goals Beyond" is the best album he ever put out. It encapsulates everything I hold sacred about the beauty of music.

Great quote.
I love his work over the years. I saw several of his late 70's projects as well as the acoustic trio. There is something wonderful on every album. My favorites would be the Shakti albums. To borrow your quote, Shakti encapsulates everything I hold sacred about the beauty of music.

(Some of the most unusual moments I ever witnessed at a concert took place when i saw him twice in the summer of 78; he had a very talented--but out there--drummer by the name of "Sonship" (Woody Theus). He had an unusual set-up, style, and would recite poetry during his solos.)

[mogrooves]

"My Goals Beyond" is the best album he ever put out.

...and Devotion.

[JJ88]

I'm a little confused as to what the original running order of Devotion was...I seem to remember a thread on the old board on this topic, many years ago.

[StevegSr]

I would tend to feel it's more the fusion guys who are "silly like that", rather than jazz players. If you listen to someone like Tal Farlow, Wes Montgomery, Barney Kessell, or even someone like Pat Metheny, they don't go overboard with the flashy playing the way the fusion guys do.

These cats will always be jazz players to me before fusion players, you dig me daddy-o?

[musicislife]

I'm a little confused as to what the original running order of Devotion was...I seem to remember a thread on the old board on this topic, many years ago.

I had reason to look into this recently. According to this review from 2002 at All About Jazz, the CD version that gets it right is Celluloid 5010 from 1993:

https://www.allaboutjazz.com/devotio...er-kolosky.php

https://www.discogs.com/John-McLaugh...elease/3586579

But even Celluloid screws it up slightly by listing the 5 tracks as 6 on the back tray card.

Edit to add that even Discogs doesn't line up with that CD. The CD combines Marbles and Siren, NOT Dragon Song and Devotion. Needless to say, it's a mess. As a matter of fact, the CD lines up with Discog's listing for the LP, except that Marbles and Siren are combined as one track:

https://www.discogs.com/John-McLaugh...elease/3935664

[profusion]

McLaughlin has been both underrated and overrated at various times in his career.

In a career as long and varied as his, there are bound to be ups and downs. He's a touchstone for me as a guitarist, and very hard for me to critique. I love his tone on The Inner Mounting Flame--that out-of-control Les Paul Custom sheets of sound thing. I felt like his electric tone gradually became more artificial and shrill after that; maybe a combination of the guitars he chose and him trying to be up on the latest gear at the time, which was often more interesting than toneful. His recent run of albums with the Fourth Dimension band have been uniformly wonderful, but damn would I love to be able to re-amp his guitar parts through a better rig.

[jkelman]

McLaughlin has been both underrated and overrated at various times in his career.

In a career as long and varied as his, there are bound to be ups and downs. He's a touchstone for me as a guitarist, and very hard for me to critique. I love his tone on The Inner Mounting Flame--that out-of-control Les Paul Custom sheets of sound thing. I felt like his electric tone gradually became more artificial and shrill after that; maybe a combination of the guitars he chose and him trying to be up on the latest gear at the time, which was often more interesting than toneful. His recent run of albums with the Fourth Dimension band have been uniformly wonderful, but damn would I love to be able to re-amp his guitar parts through a better rig.

Great answer. But for me, I always think of him as underrated not when it comes to his musicianship/technical acumen, which is pretty inimitable; but in the way that too many people pigeon-hole him into small boxes when, in his career, he's enjoyed a very broad career.

This is a guy who has done everything from post-free-bop (Extrapolation) to being one of the forefathers of fusion (Mahavishnu Orchestra MK I); has engaged with Indian musicians at a level few westerners have managed, and has played in wonderful straight-ahead roles (his work in the live band in the film 'Round Midnight, that tremendous film with Dexter Gordon playing an American musician living in Paris; has done classical work including writing his own symphonic works (Mediterranean Concerto, Mahavishnu Orchestra MK II's [I]Apocalypse[I]) and played jazz repertoire in unusual instrumental contexts (his Time Remembered album paying tribute to pianist Bill Evans as the leader of a guitar quintet, himself included); kept contemporary fusion alive with bands ranging from the Heart of Things Band (a kick-ass and, for me, vastly under appreciated band with the great saxophonist Gary Thomas, along with drummer Dennis Chambers, bassist James Genus, etc) to the Fourth Dimension, that seems to have finally settled into its best lineup yet, with Gary Husband, Ranjit Barot and Etienne M'Bappe.

He's donee - in all cases amongst others - solo performances like the first side of My Goal's Beyond; duos with Chick Corea and Paco de Lucia; trios with Trilok Gurtu and a couple of different bassists, as well as guitar trios with Di Meola and de Lucia, and the Free Spirits with Joey DeFrancesco and Dennis Chambers; quartets with (Remember) Shakti, Fourth Dimension; and larger groups like Heart of Things, MO Mark II, some of the lineups on 1995's The Promise, Mediterranean Concerto, etc. He's played with Santana (not one of my favourite combos, but still important). Despite his refusal to play in his touring bands, Miles Davis continued to recruit him for recordings from 1969 through to near his retirement in 1975, with McLaughlin playing a pivotal role on one of the first true jazz-rock (emphasis on "rock") records, A Tribute to Jack Johnson.

In other words, his career has been pretty damn diverse, but what folks tend to think of when they think of JM are two things: Mahavishnu Orchestra and Shakti.

His career has been much broader, much richer than that. So, to me, he's underrated.

[musicislife]

Great answer. But for me, I always think of him as underrated not when it comes to his musicianship/technical acumen, which is pretty inimitable; but in the way that too many people pigeon-hole him into small boxes when, in his career, he's enjoyed a very broad career.

This is a guy who has done everything from post-free-bop (Extrapolation) to being one of the forefathers of fusion (Mahavishnu Orchestra MK I); has engaged with Indian musicians at a level few westerners have managed, and has played in wonderful straight-ahead roles (his work in the live band in the film 'Round Midnight, that tremendous film with Dexter Gordon playing an American musician living in Paris; has done classical work including writing his own symphonic works (Mediterranean Concerto, Mahavishnu Orchestra MK II's [I]Apocalypse[I]) and played jazz repertoire in unusual instrumental contexts (his Time Remembered album paying tribute to pianist Bill Evans as the leader of a guitar quintet, himself included); kept contemporary fusion alive with bands ranging from the Heart of Things Band (a kick-ass and, for me, vastly under appreciated band with the great saxophonist Gary Thomas, along with drummer Dennis Chambers, bassist James Genus, etc) to the Fourth Dimension, that seems to have finally settled into its best lineup yet, with Gary Husband, Ranjit Barot and Etienne M'Bappe.

He's donee - in all cases amongst others - solo performances like the first side of My Goal's Beyond; duos with Chick Corea and Paco de Lucia; trios with Trilok Gurtu and a couple of different bassists, as well as guitar trios with Di Meola and de Lucia, and the Free Spirits with Joey DeFrancesco and Dennis Chambers; quartets with (Remember) Shakti, Fourth Dimension; and larger groups like Heart of Things, MO Mark II, some of the lineups on 1995's The Promise, Mediterranean Concerto, etc. He's played with Santana (not one of my favourite combos, but still important). Despite his refusal to play in his touring bands, Miles Davis continued to recruit him for recordings from 1969 through to near his retirement in 1975, with McLaughlin playing a pivotal role on one of the first true jazz-rock (emphasis on "rock") records, A Tribute to Jack Johnson.

In other words, his career has been pretty damn diverse, but what folks tend to think of when they think of JM are two things: Mahavishnu Orchestra and Shakti.

His career has been much broader, much richer than that. So, to me, he's underrated.

To me he, and Fripp are the best, for all the reasons you state for Johnny Mac. Plus, anybody that can take an off the cuff, flippant direction like "play guitar like you don't know how to", AND make it sound like he did on "In A Silent Way" is flippin' A-OK in my book.

[pb2015]

I'm a little confused as to what the original running order of Devotion was...I seem to remember a thread on the old board on this topic, many years ago.

On the LP I have from the early 70's, the songlist is:

Side One: Devotion/Dragon Song
Side Two: Marbles/Siren/Don't Let The Dragon Eat Your Mother/Purpose Of When

Incidentally, on the LP "Marbles" crossfades into "Siren." On most or all of the several versions of this album available now, there is a mistake where "Marbles" fades out and then restarts prior to "Siren."

[musicislife]

On the LP I have from the early 70's, the songlist is:

Side One: Devotion/Dragon Song
Side Two: Marbles/Siren/Don't Let The Dragon Eat Your Mother/Purpose Of When

Incidentally, on the LP "Marbles" crossfades into "Siren." On most or all of the several versions of this album available now, there is a mistake where "Marbles" fades out and then restarts prior to "Siren."

See my post above. The correct order is:

Marbles
Siren
Don't Let the Dragon Eat Your Mother, Brother
Purpose of When
Dragon Song
Devotion