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Thread: Frank Zappa on guitar: Underrrated, overrrated or just about right?

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    Zappa's strongest guitar skill imo,
    was his phrasing,

    The guys rhythmic variations were mind boggling.

    Check out The Frank Zappa Guitar book transcribed by Steve Vai to see what I mean.

    I found a PDF file of this long out of print book - http://pop-sheet-music.com/Files/74c...06e3a7fed4.pdf
    I have the actual book, bought in the early 90's, because I couldn't suss out the melody to Watermelon In Easter Hay. Some of that stuff looks insane on paper.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Krautman View Post
    Do you know ANY guitarist who can release a two hour long double instrumental CD made up of only live guitar solos without being boring for a single second ? I do, and his initials are not JH but FZ, and It's called "Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar".
    Then he did a second time with Guitar.

    Then he put out a third one, though not as long, called Trance Fusion.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    Some nice moments but "just about right." It would've been nice if he'd learned to play over some changes, mitigating an over-reliance on pentatonics.
    Here we go again, for the umpteenth time: there's a reason why Frank tended to solo over such "simplistic" harmonic devices. Frank wanted to be able to play whatever he wanted melodically. He didn't want to be fenced in by an elaborate series of "changes". Hence he tended to stay on just one chord, or maybe occasionally he'd have two chords (like on Inca Roads). Then there's things like the repeating riff on Treacherous Cretins, which feels like the band is alternating between two chords, but it's really just a four note lick.

    And Frank used a hell of a lot more than just pentatonics. He could solo using the various modes, and often times liked playing off extended tonalities. I remember in his Guitar Player column (which ran in just 1983, I think), he talked about "playing off the tonality of the 11th" or something like that in one piece. And he used things like whole tone and diminished scales when he felt appropriate.

    Anyway, if he had more complex chord progressions, he wouldn't have had the freedom to make the "note choices" that he did.

    Never much dug his sound, and the treble end of his wah is too often used, I suspect, to obscure a fairly modest right hand.
    Examples of where he used "the treble end of his wah too often", please? Actually, Frank didn't use a wah wah as much as I think most people think he did, at least not after the early 70's. Yeah, there's a lot of wah wah on Hot Rats and Burnt Weenie Sandwich and a few others, but after about 1974, or so, he didn't really use one much. He might have used some EQ settings that suggested leaving a wah wah parked in a single place (kinda not unlike Michael Schenker, who actually did use a wah wah that way a lot), but even that doesn't sound much like a "toe down" wah wah position.

    And I'm not sure how a wah wah pedal is supposed to cover up weak playing technique. The one effect I can see someone being able to use cover up poor playing technique, and that's delay, but even there, you can usually do stuff that you just can't do with just your hands.


    And, too often exemplary of the critical trope of the "endless guitar solo."
    I've never understood what's wrong with endless guitar solos. When they're done well, as was the case with Frank, I'd rather listen to that, than listen to a band that clearly can't even be motivated to rehearse enough so that they sound professional, much less have a guitarist with the ability to play any kind of guitar solo, and whose songwriting typically is non-existent (as is the case with most of those "we're all about songs, not guitar solos" bands that polluted the mainstream in the 90's).

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    "Rating guitarists is a stupid hobby"
    Quoting musicians who apparently didn't learn their lesson when they got shoved off a stage is a dumb hobby.


  5. #30
    Member frinspar's Avatar
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    Took a long time to warm to his soloing style after I was turned onto him. But as I grew older, and was learning to play myself, and kept listening, I eventually had something of an epiphany with his solos. He was more magician than musician at times.

  6. #31
    Just about right, but personally - and as an axeman myself since 10 y.o. - I absolutely love his playing. Gritty and dirty, yes, but so impeccably passionate at just that. I was a monster fan of Hendrix (or even cheap followers like Blackmore) before hearing "Willie the Pimp" and basically having my head spin. The Whole riff was nothing but an excuse to have an 8-minute chorus-laid distorted axejam, yet it just swelled and swelled with intensity. I still think "Black Napkins" features some of the most convincing outbursts of "feel" I've ever heard from a solo guitarist.

    Anyone interested in hearing an *exact* replication of *all* aspects of Zappa's sound, technique, timbre *as well* as compositional concept would want to check out Tsuneo Imahori with Tipographica. It's altogether quite uncanny, seeing how Tsuneo has a wholly different tone and approach when playing in other contexts.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    Just about right, but personally - and as an axeman myself since 10 y.o. - I absolutely love his playing. Gritty and dirty, yes, but so impeccably passionate at just that. I was a monster fan of Hendrix (or even cheap followers like Blackmore) before hearing "Willie the Pimp" and basically having my head spin. The Whole riff was nothing but an excuse to have an 8-minute chorus-laid distorted axejam, yet it just swelled and swelled with intensity. I still think "Black Napkins" features some of the most convincing outbursts of "feel" I've ever heard from a solo guitarist.
    Yeah, it was actually Hot Rats, and more specifically Zappa's soloing in Willie The Pimp that made me a fan of his guitar playing and music in general. Up to that point, I though some of his stuff was pretty good, but didn't like the "comedy" aspect. Somehow, that album and song opened it all up to me in a way that hadn't happened previously and I started picking up Zappa albums whenever I could.

    But yeah, for his guitar playing it was definitely Hot Rats that made me realize how great a guitarist he was (of course, that's not even his best work, but it was the introduction I needed to make me a real fan of his playing and music).

  8. #33
    Member Phlakaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infandous View Post
    Yeah, it was actually Hot Rats, and more specifically Zappa's soloing in Willie The Pimp that made me a fan of his guitar playing and music in general. Up to that point, I though some of his stuff was pretty good, but didn't like the "comedy" aspect. Somehow, that album and song opened it all up to me in a way that hadn't happened previously and I started picking up Zappa albums whenever I could.

    But yeah, for his guitar playing it was definitely Hot Rats that made me realize how great a guitarist he was (of course, that's not even his best work, but it was the introduction I needed to make me a real fan of his playing and music).
    I find his playing in '79 and '80 to be his pinnacle. The tone and sound he had from mean to light was great. I dont know a damn thing about what he's playing but I feel it and it feels amazing.

  9. #34
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlakaton View Post
    I find his playing in '79 and '80 to be his pinnacle. The tone and sound he had from mean to light was great. I dont know a damn thing about what he's playing but I feel it and it feels amazing.


    On The Bus from 1979s Joe's garage :

    http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOZ7rmOFvDM
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  10. #35
    Boo! walt's Avatar
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    This wasn't the first Zappa i ever heard, but it was among the earliest stuff i was turned on to and i have(and will always have) indelibly etched memories of being totally gassed by this.

    After countless listens over many years, this still gives me a thrill.YMMV.

    "please do not understand me too quickly"-andre gide

  11. #36


    great acoustic guitar track from Sleep dirt

    Zappa : You getting tired?
    Youman : No, my fingers got stuck.
    Last edited by alucard; 08-05-2016 at 11:32 AM.
    Dieter Moebius : "Art people like things they don’t understand!"

  12. #37
    Member Phlakaton's Avatar
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    Transylvania Boogie was the first real slice of his tone that hooked me. I LOVE that tone.

  13. #38
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infandous View Post
    it was actually Hot Rats, and more specifically Zappa's soloing in Willie The Pimp that made me a fan of his guitar playing.
    Some nice moments but one-dimensional and rhythmically flat-footed, and not enough ideas to justify its length. IMO.
    Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes

  14. #39
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    Some nice moments but one-dimensional and rhythmically flat-footed, and not enough ideas to justify its length. IMO.
    I agree with you on that one.

    Mixolydian was Franks mode of choice.
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  15. #40
    Member Wounded Land's Avatar
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    I think slightly overrated. Definitely a unique voice, though.

  16. #41
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Absolute highlights for me, but there are much more, which I will remember the second I press ' Post quick reply'

    Inca Roads (both from One Size and the whole thing on Helsinki)
    Rat Tomago, Yo Mama, The Sheik Yerbouti Tango" on Sheik Yerbouti
    Roxy And Elsewhere side two and three (LP version)
    Transsylvania Boogie, and the title track on Chungas revenge
    Several solos on Hot Rats

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    Anyone interested in hearing an *exact* replication of *all* aspects of Zappa's sound, technique, timbre *as well* as compositional concept would want to check out Tsuneo Imahori with Tipographica. It's altogether quite uncanny, seeing how Tsuneo has a wholly different tone and approach when playing in other contexts.
    This sounds intriguing! Any recommendations to start with?

    Assuming I can even find any of their CDs.

  18. #43
    A few of my favorites:




  19. #44

  20. #45
    On-topic, I think Zappa is underrated based on the fact that not that many people in my experience seem to know of his serious musical achievements -- instead only focusing on stuff like the Yellow Snow Suite, or Montana (not that those aren't great songs).

    The guitar solo on Inca Roads is one of my favorites by anyone ever. And the track Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar is another favorite of mine. Whether technically "great" or not, it's some of the best playing I've ever heard.

  21. #46
    Member Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    Probably rated about right among those who are actually familiar with him. I think his playing was genius. Yeah, he sometimes played over some simplistic vamps, but his whole thing was improvisation in the true sense of "spontaneous composition". I think he took that very seriously. Playing over a more static background gave him free rein to go in many different directions. I think FZ's playing stands in stark contrast to many other rock players that often relied on repetitive, familiar pentatonic riffery and just a lack of desire to take a chance and play a note that might be unexpected.
    <sig out of order>

  22. #47
    Member Plasmatopia's Avatar
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    I always loved Frank's guitar tone on this tune.

    <sig out of order>

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by aith01 View Post
    This sounds intriguing! Any recommendations to start with?

    Assuming I can even find any of their CDs.
    (edit...I get what SS is saying about Tsuneo Imahori with Tipographica now, so scrap what I said and listen to him instead)
    Last edited by proggosaurus; 08-05-2016 at 07:58 PM.
    i.ain't.dead.irock

  24. #49
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Anyone who has double and triple sets that are released, named "Guitar", and feature multiple versions of solos from the same composition, is not 'underrated'.

    IMO.
    Yup, I don't see how Zappa could be under-rated... or over-rated FTM.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  25. #50
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    I think Frank is rated accurately - brilliant composer and guitarist. I saw a new documentary on Frank last week and it was fascinating. He was such a free thinker with clear ethics. He pointed out the Communist Party in Europe (and other political parties) asked the band to perform for big dollars. Frank said he would never do a political event - he also said "I fucking hates communists"! There was an interview near the end of Frank's life (hard to watch) but the interviewer asked how he would like to be remembers - he said, "not at all". He must be one of the coolest artists ever.

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