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Thread: Mike Rutherford: Good, bad or just kind of meh?

  1. #1
    Member StevegSr's Avatar
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    Mike Rutherford: Good, bad or just kind of meh?

    Mike Rutherford's guitar and bass playing for Genesis. Good, bad or just kind of meh?
    To be or not to be? That is the point. - Harry Nilsson.

  2. #2
    Moderator Sean's Avatar
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    Could excellent be an option too?

    Sure he's not a rippin' lead guy but his 12 string work was the cornerstone of that early material. And he's a pretty superb bass player. Great songwriter too....

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    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Bass playing - underrated, IMO
    12-string guitar - pretty good, and fits well within the context of what the band was doing at the time
    Electric guitar - meh
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

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    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Bass: Quite good
    Guitar: adequate and tasteful

  5. #5
    Anybody who hears his bass playing as "meh" should perhaps just give up listening to music, IMO.

  6. #6
    Progdog ThomasKDye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    Bass playing - underrated, IMO
    Listen to his bass work at the end of "The Lady Lies." He's racing Collins' manic drumming and winning. (Begin at 4:55)

    "Arf." -- Frank Zappa, "Beauty Knows No Pain" (live version)

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post

    Sure he's not a rippin' lead guy but his 12 string work was the cornerstone of that early material. And he's a pretty superb bass player. Great songwriter too....
    Yes. Also seems like an even-tempered guy from what I know of him so it was probably important to have him in with the moodier types like Banks.

  8. #8
    Smallcreep's Day was the album that convinced me this guy is a 'very good' all rounder!

  9. #9
    Good, not great.
    They really lost the guitar aspect of their sound when Hackett left.

  10. #10
    An elegant, underrated bassist.

    Electric guitar is kind of "meh." That was a matter of expedience more or less, I thought.

  11. #11
    I think all of Mike's contributions to Genesis were awesome. He and Ant kind of devised the double 12 string arrangements were one of the main cornerstones of the Gabriel era sound. And as has been said, his bass playing is fantastic.

    His "lead" guitar work, I think is very fine. Maybe he's not quite on the same level as Hackett, but he does a good job and always played stuff that fit in with the music. As I've said many times, I think his playing on things like Behind The Lines, Duke's Travels, Duke's End, Abacab, Dodo/The Lurker, and Mama is quite good. He does the job he needs to do, and that's all you can ask of a musician.

    But Genesis has never really struck me as being about "virtuoso" musicianship. It's more about inventive songwriting, and having the musicians play stuff that service said compositions. There's a few virtuoso moments here and there in the Genesis canon, like the organ/guitar unison lines in Inhknaton And Itsacon or the intro of Return Of The Giant Hogweed, but most of the time, as Gabriel once suggested, it was more about melody, emotion, and atmosphere, rather than "notes".

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    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    But Genesis has never really struck me as being about "virtuoso" musicianship. It's more about inventive songwriting, and having the musicians play stuff that service said compositions. There's a few virtuoso moments here and there in the Genesis canon, like the organ/guitar unison lines in Inhknaton And Itsacon or the intro of Return Of The Giant Hogweed, but most of the time, as Gabriel once suggested, it was more about melody, emotion, and atmosphere, rather than "notes".
    One of the biggest differences (for me , at least) of Genesis to most other Prog bands: they always come off as being "non-self indulgent" --- and that is quite a tall order for any successful Prog group and the caliber of musicianship associated

  13. #13
    Great bassist and songwriter. I really enjoyed his guitar work with Genesis even though he's not the guitarist that Phillips or Hackett is. Still, he came up with some great stuff that worked well with the music.

    Bill
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    One of the biggest differences (for me , at least) of Genesis to most other Prog bands: they always come off as being "non-self indulgent" --- and that is quite a tall order for any successful Prog group and the caliber of musicianship associated
    The thing about most progressive rock bands is, they sound "intimidating", especially if you're a musician wanting to play that kind of music. A lot of the music by people like Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Zappa (especially), etc most of it sounds like it would take forever to not only decipher what the musicians were doing, but could you imagine what a musician would have to go through to make themselves able to play Tarkus, Close To The Edge, Fracture or Inca Roads?! (and yes, I know a few of you have actually played these and other "impossible to play compositions" including one of us who had to play Inca Roads and other selections with the guy who wrote them!)

    By contrast, most of the Genesis stuff doesn't sound that difficult. Maybe untangling the dual 12 string guitar parts might be daunting (it always seemed that way to me, because of the time it never sounded like two guitars). But most of the solo passages are more or less singable, the same way Dr. Brian May's guitar solos were frequently singable.

    Other than the solo piano thing on the intro, Firth Of Fifth always struck me as reasonably easy to play. Yeah, there's a lot of nuisances that, if you were in a tribute band and wanted to play it just like on the record that would be hard to do. But I always thought the guitar solo in that song was such that it wouldn't be too hard to render it in a fashion recognizable to anyone who knew the record well. Likewise for things like Los Endos, Ripples, Entangled, ...In That Quiet Earth, Can Utility And The Coastliners, Fly On A Windshield, Colony Of The Slippermen. If you're working from an accurate transcription, a lot of it doesn't strike me as being too difficult to render in a fashion recognizable to anyone who knows the record.
    Last edited by GuitarGeek; 07-31-2016 at 05:34 AM.

  15. #15
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    But Genesis has never really struck me as being about "virtuoso" musicianship. It's more about inventive songwriting, and having the musicians play stuff that service said compositions. There's a few virtuoso moments here and there in the Genesis canon, like the organ/guitar unison lines in Inhknaton And Itsacon or the intro of Return Of The Giant Hogweed, but most of the time, as Gabriel once suggested, it was more about melody, emotion, and atmosphere, rather than "notes".
    Well I suggested in the 80's Gen thread that Collins was the only real virtuosy in the band, the other being "only" really good at their respective tools

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    Anybody who hears his bass playing as "meh" should perhaps just give up listening to music, IMO.
    That's when you can hear his bass clearly... Unlike in Yes or Crimson, I've often found Rutherford's bass too buried/muffled in Genesis.

    It took the remasterings to clear that up somewhat.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  16. #16
    Member chescorph's Avatar
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    His bass work on early Genesis is superb. Later stuff is a bit simplified but then again so are the other instruments. I have no trouble picking out the bass lines. He works superbly with Collins and uses pedals very tastefully (although some of that could be Banks).

    Guitar was great on pieces like Burning Rope, but I am not hearing much memorable stuff later. Lots more atmospheric rhythm and chordings.

  17. #17
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    The thing about most progressive rock bands is, they sound "intimidating", especially if you're a musician wanting to play that kind of music. A lot of the music by people like Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Zappa (especially), etc most of it sounds like it would take forever to not only decipher what the musicians were doing, but could you imagine what a musician would have to go through to make themselves able to play Tarkus, Close To The Edge, Fracture or Inca Roads?! (and yes, I know a few of you have actually played these and other "impossible to play compositions" including one of us who had to play Inca Roads and other selections with the guy who wrote them!)

    By contrast, most of the Genesis stuff doesn't sound that difficult. Maybe untangling the dual 12 string guitar parts might be daunting (it always seemed that way to me, because of the time it never sounded like two guitars). But most of the solo passages are more or less singable, the same way Dr. Brian May's guitar solos were frequently singable.

    Other than the solo piano thing on the intro, Firth Of Fifth always struck me as reasonably easy to play. Yeah, there's a lot of nuisances that, if you were in a tribute band and wanted to play it just like on the record that would be hard to do. But I always thought the guitar solo in that song was such that it wouldn't be too hard to render it in a fashion recognizable to anyone who knew the record well. Likewise for things like Los Endos, Ripples, Entangled, ...In That Quiet Earth, Can Utility And The Coastliners, Fly On A Windshield, Colony Of The Slippermen. If you're working from an accurate transcription, a lot of it doesn't strike me as being too difficult to render in a fashion recognizable to anyone who knows the record.
    +1

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    Given the width of his instrumental input - he was a foundational backbone.

    Attend a TMB show and watch his mimic, and you'll get an idea how busy he was in the day.

  19. #19
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    Fuckin' great would be my pick.

  20. #20
    The genius of Genesis was in the inventiveness of the arrangements and how memorable many of the individual parts were, not in their level of difficulty.

  21. #21
    Growing up a prog rock teen with other musicians into prog and fusion, I always thought he was on par with Lake and Squire on bass. I like his lead work on And Then There Were Three.

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    Great bassist and 12-string guitarist. Pretty awful lead player, quite frankly, and I'm really not so hot on his songwriting from 1978 onwards, either. Rightly or wrongly, it seems to me that if there's anybody in Genesis responsible for their slide into pop mediocrity then it's Rutherford. Very sad how his playing chops seem to have ebbed away as his writing contributions to Genesis became ever-more MOR, too.

  23. #23
    Member rapidfirerob's Avatar
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    Guitar playing, in the meh category.


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    lead issues aside he has devised a fairly distinctive rhythm guitar style during circa trio-GENESiS onwards … let me point out his playing during the second half of “one man’s fool” (CaS), which – in variation – runs through most of their latter-day work and has become a distinctive feature.

    also, quite a vocalist to be reckoned with ;-)>



    in a nutshell: a champion of effective minimalism – which is why this one, one of his songs, is one of my favourite GENESiS tracks:


  25. #25
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kid_runningfox View Post
    Great bassist and 12-string guitarist. Pretty awful lead player, quite frankly, and I'm really not so hot on his songwriting from 1978 onwards, either. Rightly or wrongly, it seems to me that if there's anybody in Genesis responsible for their slide into pop mediocrity then it's Rutherford. Very sad how his playing chops seem to have ebbed away as his writing contributions to Genesis became ever-more MOR, too.
    I'd even start with 77 with that total dreck Your Own Special Way - although if memory serves, he did write Motherlode, the best track on ATTWT...
    Thing is that he could write some good things as well in the late 70's with his first solo ASCD album, which is on par with Banks' ACF
    Indeed , I think Mike ruined Genesis as much as Phil.... but then again, Tony deserves a big part of the blame, since nothing went on in Genesis without his consent.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

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