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Thread: Turntables?

  1. #26
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    Buy a good turntable, then buy an external USB adapter.

    Like the Behringer UFO202. This will allow you to buy any TT you want, instead of being limited to those with built in USB.

    That adapter maxes out at 16/48, as does the built in adapter of any USB TT. I personally record my vinyls at 24/96. I can understand naysayers not wanting to spend their cash on Hi-Res downloads, but having my computer set at 24/96 rather than 16/44.1 while recording costs me absolutely nothing...zip, zero, zilch.

    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    You might find that you enjoy vinyl and collect more of it in the future. Those cheap tables have horrible conical styli, that will ruin your records. And they sound like crap.

    They have bad frequency response, tend to accentuate surface noise (make clicks and pop much more noticable), have higher distortion, need more tracking weight (more record wear), lousy stereo separation, and more.

    But if you must buy an all in one TT, go for the Audio-Technica AT-LP120. They are direct drive, and they come with a legitimate phono cartridge, an AT95E with an elliptical stylus, not a conical one.

    It will set you back about $300, but with turntables, you do get what you pay for.
    The AT95E cartridge is a P-mount cartridge. I would *HIGHLY* recommend a 1/2" mount TT. A P-mount TT will be plagued by static, while the 1/2" mount shunts static to ground. Not to mention, there's a much wider selection of higher quality 1/2" mount cartridges available.

    Update 04/11/19: My bad, the AT95E is actually a 1/2' mount cartridge...I was confusing it with the AT92E. Quite a blunder considering I own and regularly use an AT95E to play my rougher condition records. That's to minimize stylus wear on my Ortofon OM 10 cartridge, the replacement stylus of which is only $10 below the $72 price tag of the entire cartridge.
    Last edited by progmatist; 04-11-2019 at 02:42 PM.
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  2. #27
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    I personally record my vinyls at 24/96. I can understand naysayers not wanting to spend their cash on Hi-Res downloads, but having my computer set at 24/96 rather than 16/44.1 while recording costs me absolutely nothing...zip, zero, zilch.
    It also gains you nothing.

  3. #28
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    It also gains you nothing.
    One thing I know for certain, and is difficult to dispute: If an old vinyl record is played with a quality cartridge and through quality analog equipment, it sounds rich, full and well balanced. If that same vinyl is recorded in CD quality through the very same setup, it suddenly sounds like it's in desperate need of a remastering. Drum hits in particular turn into dull thuds, especially the kick and snare. The bass (guitar) will quite often, though not always sound muddy and thumpy. However, if the vinyl is recorded in Hi-Res, it's virtually indistinguishable from the original.

    Similarly, if a tape head is slightly out of alignment, and is brought back into alignment, it doesn't only improve the sound of the hi-hat, cymbals and vocal sibilance. It improves the sound of EVERY instrument. The entire voice sounds better, not just the sibilance. The drums sound less thudy, and the bass (guitar) sounds less muddy. Also similarly, brass instruments in partular have more of a raspy bite. Not just the trumpets and (french) horns, but the trombones, bass trombones, baritone horn and bass tuba as well.

    In the late 80s/early 90s, recording engineers began compensating for the drum thud by making the drums sound more boomy. An unfortunate side effect was making drums sound unnatural. But since it was a vast improvement in sound over early CDs, and we're so accustomed to hearing that drum sound, few people realize just how unnatural it sounds. If one listens to an acoustic drum kit, that is NOT mic'd and EQ'd through a sound system, it'll sound more appropriate for an old analog recording than a modern CD recording.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  4. #29
    You can find second hand turntables in good shape for a bargain price. Depending where you live some brands might be more popular. I would rather buy it in a used hifi shop to be sure it works or otherwise try to find something in the neighbourhood and check out if it works. I have two Dual 70s direct drives who work perfectly and a Technics 80s beltdrive. With a beltdrive you just have to change the belt from time to time but thats quite easy.
    Dieter Moebius : "Art people like things they donít understand!"

  5. #30
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    One thing I know for certain, and is difficult to dispute: If an old vinyl record is played with a quality cartridge and through quality analog equipment, it sounds rich, full and well balanced. If that same vinyl is recorded in CD quality through the very same setup, it suddenly sounds like it's in desperate need of a remastering. Drum hits in particular turn into dull thuds, especially the kick and snare. The bass (guitar) will quite often, though not always sound muddy and thumpy. However, if the vinyl is recorded in Hi-Res, it's virtually indistinguishable from the original.
    That sounds like a problem with your signal path in the dubbing process. It Is not my experience.

  6. #31
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    That sounds like a problem with your signal path in the dubbing process. It Is not my experience.
    So the early CD versions of older analog recordings sounding like s*** is just an auditory hallucination? I have yet to hear one that doesn't suffer from what I described. If there was a problem with my setup, I'd have an identical experience with 16/44.1 and 24/96. I have anything but.
    Last edited by progmatist; 04-13-2019 at 01:58 PM.
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  7. #32
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    So the early CD versions of older analog recordings sounding like s*** is just an auditory hallucination?
    I suspect many of them were made from mixdowns mastered for LP.

    Listen, I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just telling you your experience is not universal.
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 04-13-2019 at 04:20 PM.

  8. #33
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    A great deal of the early CD's sounded harsh, hard and unpleasant to the ear, at least after some minutes of listening. Luckily this is not the case anymore.
    I onced talked with a guy, who in the early 90'ties saw the light, sold all his zappa vinyl and bought the CD's - and wept.

    But it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the media, but mostly with the guys who produced it. Their ears, the source and their equipment.

  9. #34
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alucard View Post
    You can find second hand turntables in good shape for a bargain price. Depending where you live some brands might be more popular. I would rather buy it in a used hifi shop to be sure it works or otherwise try to find something in the neighbourhood and check out if it works. I have two Dual 70s direct drives who work perfectly and a Technics 80s beltdrive. With a beltdrive you just have to change the belt from time to time but thats quite easy.
    I lucked out a couple of months ago. At a local record shop, there was a Crosley C200 direct drive TT for $100 off the street price. It was a return...whoever bought and returned it jammed too large RCA plugs into it, damaging the output jacks. I'm still handy with a soldering iron, so I was able to easily replace the output jacks. Good as new!
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  10. #35
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    I have CDs that sound quite better than records and I have records that sound better than their counterparts on CD. Blame the record companies, the producers, the consumers who want something loud blistering through their tinny earbuds. My Decemberists vinyl sounds far better than the brick-walled CDs. My CD of The Band's Big Pink has a depth and a dynamic range far better than my old vinyl.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  11. #36
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    My Decemberists vinyl sounds far better than the brick-walled CDs.
    A vinyl record can't be brick-walled like a modern CD. If it was, it would be unplayable, similar to running your stylus over a buzz saw blade. That alone, at least to me, justifies spending $10 to $15 more for a new release vinyl over the CD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    My CD of The Band's Big Pink has a depth and a dynamic range far better than my old vinyl.
    There is one CD which sounds so fantastic, I could swear I was listening to it in Hi-Res: Al Di Meola's Kiss My Axe. To this day, I load clips of it into Izotope Ozone as a reference, as a starting point for my own mastering.
    Last edited by progmatist; 04-14-2019 at 04:34 PM.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  12. #37
    Member Lopez's Avatar
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    Not to hi-jack the thread, but the comment about changing turntable belts reminded me. Today for the first time in must be at least a dozen years, I put a cassette in the old Snayo cassette deck, fearing any belts or drives in it would have been rotted away. Worked beautifully like the day I bought it over 40 years ago. I have no desire to jump on the hipster band wagon and start buying cassettes.
    Lou

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  13. #38
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    I have a working cassette deck that I inherited. I should clean the thing up to make sure it continues to run well. I still have about a hundred recorded cassettes, all of it music that can't be found anymore in any format. It's fun to play those old tapes when I'm working in the basement.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  14. #39
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    I don't know why it's so hard to make a good sounding reissue, cos when I engrave a vinyl onto a CDr via my hi-fi chain (the CD burner is a hi-fi burner), the finalized CDr sounds just like (as good) the vinyl I recorded


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    But it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the media, but mostly with the guys who produced it. Their ears, the source and their equipment.
    Absolutely... Only Peter Hammill can be held responsible for the disastrious jobs he made on his 2005 solo and VdGG remasters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    I have CDs that sound quite better than records and I have records that sound better than their counterparts on CD. Blame the record companies, the producers, the consumers who want something loud blistering through their tinny earbuds. My Decemberists vinyl sounds far better than the brick-walled CDs. My CD of The Band's Big Pink has a depth and a dynamic range far better than my old vinyl.
    I've got many dozens of CDS which I can play louder and still sound perfect.
    However, there are also dozens (usually the remastered ones) that are almost painful to listen at loud levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    I have a working cassette deck that I inherited. I should clean the thing up to make sure it continues to run well. I still have about a hundred recorded cassettes, all of it music that can't be found anymore in any format. It's fun to play those old tapes when I'm working in the basement.
    mmmhhh!!!... Pretty sure that the only cassette decks I still have (two: one in my Brussels pad hi-fi and the other is my Walkman from 2005) are still working fine, but they're both direct drive, so no belt that I'm aware of to replace.

    Not sure the one I have in my ghetto blaster (I could still have a car deck lying around in the attic as well) still works. But I'd have to clean the heads before playing a tape in any of those, I guess
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from heroin-addicts to crazy ones

  15. #40
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    I have a working cassette deck that I inherited. I should clean the thing up to make sure it continues to run well. I still have about a hundred recorded cassettes, all of it music that can't be found anymore in any format. It's fun to play those old tapes when I'm working in the basement.
    If the bug ever bites you to digitize your cassettes, this program does an unbelievable job at subduing hiss and bringing the actual music from behind the hiss. And it's only around $30 US, depending on the current exchange rate with the Australian Dollar.
    Last edited by progmatist; 04-15-2019 at 02:13 PM.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    It also gains you nothing.

    I disagree.

    Every year at the time of the T.H.E. Show (audio show) in Los Angeles, about 15-20 audiophiles (yes, I know, a small sample size) get together to do a double blind listening test on some aspect of audio.

    In 2018, it was comparing 4 DACS at different price ranges. In 2017, it was 16/44.1 vs 24/192 vs DSD.

    The vast majority of the 20 or so people, heard differences, and prefered the hi res files. The improvement was most noticeable in image, soundstage and ambience retrieval. Especially noticeable on classical and acoustic jazz recordings.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  17. #42
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Listen, I'm not trying to change your mind.
    ..

  18. #43
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Love it!!!
    Lou

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