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Thread: FEATURED CD: King Crimson - Starless and Bible Black

  1. #126
    In case anyone is not aware of the fact, there's a studio recording of Doctor Diamond on the Wetton/Palmer-James album Monkey Business. The delivery is much less rushed on that version.

  2. #127
    I didn't read the entire thread, so forgive me if someone already posted these.

    My review of the original Starless and Bible Black 40th Anniversary edition;
    My review of the Starless box, which includes both SABB and USA (in addition to plenty of other great live sets, including 1997's The Nightwatch).

  3. #128
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    It seemed like they had a lot of fun playing "Doctor Diamond." They fury with which the attacked it like makes up for any lack of composition, imo.
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  4. #129
    According to "Rock Journalists" and over an extensive period of time, (decades), comments , during interviews, it was being unlawfully broadcasted that Robert Fripp was interested in the occult. It's a sure thing that several interviews or just statements in passing, (by others), are not available on the internet. If he was/is...interested in the occult, that's his business and flaunting his personal life is pointless. It's the music that makes me curious. It actually makes a huge difference if he WAS into the occult because it most certainly had an influence on his ideas. There are several composers who have written themes revolving around the devil, but in their personal life they are totally dismissive/disinterested to indulge themselves in the occult..short of composing a piece. According to magazines ..Fripp was the opposite. My personal belief is that Robert Fripp expressed the interest he had in the occult through his music. If in fact that is true, then it's good to know of his personal interest because it explains a lot about the music. The ideas derived from the influence, the inspiration, and the personal dark vibe the music sets off to the listener. I get the impression ...one hundred percent ...that Fripp was not one of those many artists that tried to be weird. But..I don't believe everything I read based on the distrust I have for the journalists's position. Quotes are changed, out-right false and misleading information about an artist becomes a rumour circulated for decades, and who knows for sure if that wasn't all contrived by a journalist to sensationalize and make higher profit instead of pure honesty for the sake of morality? Several Progressive Rock supporters/journalists from the 70's and 80's have a track record of changing around a story and altering the truth. Not much different from Rock Journalists that told lies about the band Heart. Maybe Fripp just happened to write dark music? Being a musician all my life, I've always been curious if Fripp took an influence from underworld related fantasies.

  5. #130
    Who was into the occult was Pete Sinfield. Look at his lyrics for the first few albums.
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  6. #131
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enid View Post
    According to "Rock Journalists" and over an extensive period of time, (decades), comments , during interviews, it was being unlawfully broadcasted that Robert Fripp was interested in the occult. It's a sure thing that several interviews or just statements in passing, (by others), are not available on the internet. If he was/is...interested in the occult, that's his business and flaunting his personal life is pointless. It's the music that makes me curious. It actually makes a huge difference if he WAS into the occult because it most certainly had an influence on his ideas. There are several composers who have written themes revolving around the devil, but in their personal life they are totally dismissive/disinterested to indulge themselves in the occult..short of composing a piece. According to magazines ..Fripp was the opposite. My personal belief is that Robert Fripp expressed the interest he had in the occult through his music. If in fact that is true, then it's good to know of his personal interest because it explains a lot about the music. The ideas derived from the influence, the inspiration, and the personal dark vibe the music sets off to the listener. I get the impression ...one hundred percent ...that Fripp was not one of those many artists that tried to be weird. But..I don't believe everything I read based on the distrust I have for the journalists's position. Quotes are changed, out-right false and misleading information about an artist becomes a rumour circulated for decades, and who knows for sure if that wasn't all contrived by a journalist to sensationalize and make higher profit instead of pure honesty for the sake of morality? Several Progressive Rock supporters/journalists from the 70's and 80's have a track record of changing around a story and altering the truth. Not much different from Rock Journalists that told lies about the band Heart. Maybe Fripp just happened to write dark music? Being a musician all my life, I've always been curious if Fripp took an influence from underworld related fantasies.
    I got the impression that Fripp got into a kind of mysticism via Gurdjieff. Perhaps splitting the difference between occultism and mysticism was beyond your standard pop journalist.


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  7. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer View Post
    Who was into the occult was Pete Sinfield. Look at his lyrics for the first few albums.
    It's possible. However on another note, several writers study the occult for the purpose of creating a story and short of that...they have no real interest in it

  8. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by notallwhowander View Post
    I got the impression that Fripp got into a kind of mysticism via Gurdjieff. Perhaps splitting the difference between occultism and mysticism was beyond your standard pop journalist.


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  9. #134
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpt3 View Post
    In case anyone is not aware of the fact, there's a studio recording of Doctor Diamond on the Wetton/Palmer-James album Monkey Business. The delivery is much less rushed on that version.
    Didn't know that, or of that album. But I like the rushed, crazy quality of the live one. Possibly my fave KC track.

  10. #135
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Last night I was listening again to Starless and Bible Black again, while reading the Wikipedia entry on the album, and about how they pieced it together from live and studio material and tinkered with it and all. So while they needed the album in a hurry, it still sounds like they put some thought into assembling the album. So why does The Mincer end the way it does? It really sounds like something went wrong and they just couldn't be bothered to fix it. I know that might be the idea, but it really sounds like an unfinished song - it sounds bad! The whole thing just sounds like a fragment of a song. Have a listen to it again if it's been a while.

  11. #136
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    So why does The Mincer end the way it does? It really sounds like something went wrong and they just couldn't be bothered to fix it.
    That's where the tape ran out on the live recording--you're hearing the crumpled end of the tape that was tucked into the reel. Wetton and Bruford agreed with you; they wanted a proper ending for the track if it was going to appear on the album. Fripp and Cross liked the sputtering, running-out-of-gas effect, and I agree with them. It's just the sort of left-field surprise that made King Crimson so offbeat and interesting.
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  12. #137
    I'm quite fond of the restored "full" version:


  13. #138
    ^The full performance is one of my favorite improvs from the era. “Golden Walnut” is pretty cool, too. Cross’ electric piano (Hohner, I think) work could be surprisingly good.
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  14. #139
    Member bigjohnwayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    Last night I was listening again to Starless and Bible Black again, while reading the Wikipedia entry on the album, and about how they pieced it together from live and studio material and tinkered with it and all. So while they needed the album in a hurry, it still sounds like they put some thought into assembling the album. So why does The Mincer end the way it does? It really sounds like something went wrong and they just couldn't be bothered to fix it. I know that might be the idea, but it really sounds like an unfinished song - it sounds bad! The whole thing just sounds like a fragment of a song. Have a listen to it again if it's been a while.
    The full version linked above shows that they didn't actually run out of tape, but simply cut it there before the jam went off into some slightly more conventional Crimson mutated funk.

    The Law of Maximum Distress part one and part two, which appear on The Great Deceiver, the Live at Zurich, and the Zurich discs of the Starless box are just the part of that same jam that are before the Mincer and the part after.


    edit: seeing as how you have heard the full version, all I wrote must be old news for you! I must have misunderstood your previous post.

  15. #140
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjohnwayne View Post
    The full version linked above shows that they didn't actually run out of tape
    No. That edit has the album version of "The Mincer," complete with vocal overdubs, spliced in. It cuts from Bruford's second drum fill directly to "The Law of Maximum Distress Part 2," simply omitting the part where the tape ran out. The full version appears on KCCC #41, where the "Mincer" section has been patched in from an audience tape, including an intact version of the music you hear at the very end of the album version as it sputters out.
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  16. #141
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    I've listened to every King Crimson a million times. Lizard, Islands, TPtB, etc. I've never listened to this one and I don't know why. It's like a Crimson black hole to me.

  17. #142
    I. Love. This. Album.

    This one prepares you for and takes you straight into The Great Deceiver box set. And from there, all hope of avoiding becoming a helpless Crimson fanboy is lost....

  18. #143
    Member Paulrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julioscissors View Post
    I've listened to every King Crimson a million times. Lizard, Islands, TPtB, etc. I've never listened to this one and I don't know why. It's like a Crimson black hole to me.
    I recall way back being intimidated by S&BB, knowing that half of it was taken from live sources. At the time I found KC live improvs a bit too loose and nebulous for my Yes-minded, structured idea of good progressive rock. You do have to sort of grow into it, but once you pass that threshold it's a winner. I still rate it third out of the mid-70s trio, but it's far from a weak album. The studio cuts alone are worth the price of admission.
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

  19. #144
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    This was the first KC album I heard and the first one I owned, probably in '76 or '77. I actually found it pretty impenetrable, but would make the attempt from time to time. Then when Discipline came out and grabbed me immediately I went back to S&BB and had much greater success decoding it. It remains my favorite of the 70s sides to this day.
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  20. #145
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    I recall way back being intimidated by S&BB, knowing that half of it was taken from live sources. At the time I found KC live improvs a bit too loose and nebulous for my Yes-minded, structured idea of good progressive rock. You do have to sort of grow into it, but once you pass that threshold it's a winner. I still rate it third out of the mid-70s trio, but it's far from a weak album. The studio cuts alone are worth the price of admission.
    There are things to like about every KC release I own (every studio album), including SABB but it's definitely the weakess of the trio.
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  21. #146
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mozo-pg View Post
    There are things to like about every KC release I own (every studio album), including SABB but it's definitely the weakess of the trio.
    For me, it has always been (and still is) by far the strongest of the trio.

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  22. #147
    Member chalkpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Triscuits View Post
    That's where the tape ran out on the live recording--you're hearing the crumpled end of the tape that was tucked into the reel. Wetton and Bruford agreed with you; they wanted a proper ending for the track if it was going to appear on the album. Fripp and Cross liked the sputtering, running-out-of-gas effect, and I agree with them. It's just the sort of left-field surprise that made King Crimson so offbeat and interesting.
    I've always liked the sputtering ending too.

  23. #148
    Member Guitarplyrjvb's Avatar
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    It's my first Crimson LP. Plus, there's Fracture. I think it's my favorite, too, although the trio are all great!

  24. #149
    The Trio improv is amazing too.


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  25. #150
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    Haven't listened to it in a while, but remember not liking it back in the day. Not because the music wasn't good, (it is,) but I recall quite a few interludes with ambient sounds like breaking glass and other found sounds. It annoyed the shit out of me. I thought "don't you have a story about a rabbit who lost his glasses that you could have stuck in there instead of all this boring tinkling?"

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