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Thread: FEATURED CD: King Crimson - Starless and Bible Black

  1. #26
    Three Words: The Night Watch

  2. #27
    Member StevegSr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Love it !
    Fracture is a monster !
    My brother confessed to hating KC, but I caught him numerous times listening to "Fracture" with headphones, at full blast!
    I'm surprised that he's not deaf.
    To be or not to be? That is the point. - Harry Nilsson.

  3. #28
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    Sometimes the forgotten middle child of the Wetton KC era,
    Not forgotten by me.

    By far my favorite of the Wetton KC era releases that were actually released in the 70s. Some of it still slays me.

    Seeing them just a few days before they broke up (The Kennedy Center, DC, June 27, 1974) and seeing Fracture (among others) is a great, great memory.
    Steve F.

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    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by progman1975 View Post
    Three Words: The Night Watch
    Always intrigued me. Why write a song about that particular artwork?

  5. #30
    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    So I just gave this a fresh listen. I've always really liked Great Deceiver, Lament, and Night Watch. We'll Let You Know is OK, and Trio is OK too.

    From The Mincer on, I'm kind of "meh" on most of this. It's not awful, but to me, there's an awful lot of farting around here. SaBB, in particular, seems just a waste of space to me, it just never catches my ear at all. Fractured is great in the second half, but the first bit just gets meshed in the (imo) "meh-ness" of SaBB. They needed something more upbeat in between to break it up, so the quiet intro of Fractured would have greater intensity. Maybe another vocal piece, because it loses that aspect after Night Watch.

    So, what can I say. I really like parts of it, but for me it is the not "forgotten," but rather "lesser" middle child of one of the best periods of one of the best Prog bands ever. It's no surprise that people who are into the most "out there" stuff dig this the most. But if you can accuse Yes of disappearing up their own assholes on TfTO, I think the same could easily apply to this record. IMHO, YMMV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halmyre View Post
    Always intrigued me. Why write a song about that particular artwork?
    I wish I had my Russell Shorto book on Amsterdam handy, but I loaned it to someone. His description of this painting puts it into context as rightly one of of the great works of Western art. Having read extensively about this historical period, I can say this piece (and the painting itself) captures something of the mood of that time, after exhaustive and bitter wars fighting for a way of life that has done more to inform modernity than most realize. If you don't know why all this is important to us today, this is your invitation to learn...

    And so the pride of little men
    The burghers good and true
    Still living through the painter's hand
    Request you all to understand

    Bill

  6. #31
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    SaBB is THE great rock improvisation of the 70s.
    IMO, but I'm still very surprised you don't hear it....
    and Fracture?
    Buildup, tension, release, tension, release, tension, tension, TENSION!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It's everything I know I wanted MY rock music to be........

    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    there's an awful lot of farting around here. SaBB, in particular, seems just a waste of space to me, it just never catches my ear at all. Fractured is great in the second half, but the first bit just gets meshed in the (imo) "meh-ness" of SaBB. [...] if you can accuse Yes of disappearing up their own assholes on TfTO, I think the same could easily apply to this record. IMHO, YMMV.
    Last things first. On TfTO, Yes effectively became "pretentious" in attempting to be something they very evidently were not, i.e. large-scale formal composers. The concept at play on KC's S&BB however, was the exact opposite; to essentially capture what they couldn't succeed at in the studio, i.e. their sense of immediacy and charge as in a live sound setting. As such, KC were doing precisely what they set out to do and were admittedly damn GOOD at, whilst Yes on Tales - uhm, hardly (although I certainly like significant parts of it for what they are).

    Then the "farting around" bit. Some folks keep bringing in that argument once it appears how a piece isn't arranged by numbers but rather created more or less spontaneously through collective impulse and chemistry. Improvisation is a wholly legitimate mode of expression, also in free form and - already from 1965-66 - in rock music. Does it gel, work, "take off"? Some bands got these things going quite well, yet definitely not always and as a rule on different terms and thus with varying means; Hendrix, The Dead, Kaleidoscope, Softs, Gong, Düül II (and loads of various other Krauts), Henry Cow - still VERY few made such a poignant artistic statement out of their improvs as KC. And I agree with Steve here; "SBB" cuts it big time (although I still think "Providence" is even better). KC "farting off" to me would be that filler mid-section of "Starless" or the drag of the end part in "Red Nightmare".

    As for "Fracture", I wouldn't have a single fart altered there. I find that Wetton background howl of ecstatic blissplay during the second half one of the major highlights of 70s rock; these guys were grooving with a sinister vengeance, yet also with a funky foot. THIS is what sets them apart from the other "bigs".
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  8. #33
    As for "Fracture", I wouldn't have a single fart altered there. I find that Wetton background howl of ecstatic blissplay during the second half one of the major highlights of 70s rock; these guys were grooving with a sinister vengeance, yet also with a funky foot. THIS is what sets them apart from the other "bigs".[/QUOTE]

    The howl is actually Bruford :-) He was known for shouting to himself !

  9. #34
    That's Bruford's howl, right? Pretty sure it's referenced by Fripp in a liner note somewhere.

    SS, have you heard the original version of "Fracture" with the noodly Jazz bit? It's on the SaBB box. Definitely loses some impact with that section in there.
    I want to dynamite your mind with love tonight.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Beebfader View Post
    The howl is actually Bruford :-) He was known for shouting to himself!
    Yes, I knew but still for some reason wrote the wrong name.

    Bruford - even better! That stringent head needed abittu chaos symptom. And note; I'm only referring to the initial S&BB or The Nightwatch unpolished version.

    But I wouldn't want the piece to be watered out with, say, a jam on the theme from "Love Boat" or "Rock Around the Clock".
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  11. #36
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    FEATURED CD: King Crimson - Starless and Bible Black

    It's Bruford's yell of musical ecstasy.
    For years I thought was Wetton, but I was recently corrected.

    Notice that everyone instinctively KNOWS it isn't Robert....
    Steve F.

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    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  12. #37
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    I love this album. I've always suspected the sequencing of the tracks works against its popularity. Then again, SaBB upholds a Crim tradition of having a weaker 2nd side. No matter; I love this mix of live & studio; too many ideas & too few; precision & chaos. I love the dusty, antique sound of the thing, too. This is probably the only KC album I never want to hear "improved!"

    This record STILL informs almost everything I do in the realm of rock music to this day.

  13. #38
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    ^^^

    A WEAKER second side?


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    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    ^^^

    A WEAKER second side?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Whoops ... deleted my post somehow. Stupid phone/fat thumbs. Shall we say a "less immediate" 2nd side?

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by mx20 View Post
    Shall we say a "less immediate" 2nd side?
    Hm. I'd say that on my three fave KC records (Lizard, LTiA and the one in question), side 2 pretty much knocks side 1 quite flat.

    I'd still agree that each and every KC album had its "dull moment", though.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  16. #41
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Less immediate makes me much happier, even if it doesn't hold true to me personally
    Look, everyone is entitled to their personal opinion and I don't mean to be mean or snarky or anything else negative. Really!

    But

    If you don't really like side two of SaBB, I really think you are not 'in tune' with what RF was really concerned with and concentrating on with this edition of KC.

    That's aok, but they were definitely NOT missing their mark or farting around; THIS IS WHAT THEY WERE ABOUT AND WHAT THEY WERE, and you just are not into that.
    Which is aok. But they weren't missing the mark they were aiming for.
    IMO.


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    Steve F.

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    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  17. #42
    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    SaBB is THE great rock improvisation of the 70s.
    IMO, but I'm still very surprised you don't hear it....
    and Fracture?
    Buildup, tension, release, tension, release, tension, tension, TENSION!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It's everything I know I wanted MY rock music to be........

    Cool. As I said, YMMV. And as I also said, I liked Fracture, but thought it would have benefited from being juxtaposed against something that was more energetic before it, so the beginning would have even had more tension. The consensus that this album is the "forgotten" or "lesser" album doesn't come from nowhere, and with this album you're not dealing with the pop fans who think this. This one is an acquired taste. More power to those who acquire it, but many find it to be a bridge too far in some spots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    Last things first. On TfTO, Yes effectively became "pretentious" in attempting to be something they very evidently were not, i.e. large-scale formal composers. The concept at play on KC's S&BB however, was the exact opposite; to essentially capture what they couldn't succeed at in the studio, i.e. their sense of immediacy and charge as in a live sound setting. As such, KC were doing precisely what they set out to do and were admittedly damn GOOD at, whilst Yes on Tales - uhm, hardly (although I certainly like significant parts of it for what they are).

    Then the "farting around" bit. Some folks keep bringing in that argument once it appears how a piece isn't arranged by numbers but rather created more or less spontaneously through collective impulse and chemistry. Improvisation is a wholly legitimate mode of expression, also in free form and - already from 1965-66 - in rock music. Does it gel, work, "take off"? Some bands got these things going quite well, yet definitely not always and as a rule on different terms and thus with varying means; Hendrix, The Dead, Kaleidoscope, Softs, Gong, Düül II (and loads of various other Krauts), Henry Cow - still VERY few made such a poignant artistic statement out of their improvs as KC. And I agree with Steve here; "SBB" cuts it big time (although I still think "Providence" is even better). KC "farting off" to me would be that filler mid-section of "Starless" or the drag of the end part in "Red Nightmare".

    As for "Fracture", I wouldn't have a single fart altered there. I find that Wetton background howl of ecstatic blissplay during the second half one of the major highlights of 70s rock; these guys were grooving with a sinister vengeance, yet also with a funky foot. THIS is what sets them apart from the other "bigs".
    Yeah, whatever. See above.

    And I say again, I like Fracture, but think it would have been more powerful juxtaposed against something with different dynamics. And Yes succeeded admirably in large scale compositions, even to some extent on the (sometimes) maligned TfTO. But let's get real, stuff like this leaves a large swath of the audience scratching their heads... and I'm not just talking about the Flower Kings fans. There's a point where it moves into music that will only appeal to the "tail end" of a particular audience. As I say, more power to those who dig it, but to me the best stuff has a broader appeal. IMHO, YMMV.

    Bill

  18. #43
    Estimated Prophet notallwhowander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halmyre View Post
    Always intrigued me. Why write a song about that particular artwork?
    Doesn't the song explain that?
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.

  19. #44
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    FEATURED CD: King Crimson - Starless and Bible Black

    I agree that it might only appeal to the tail end of an audience.
    But I think they didn't care and this is exactly what they wanted to create. Take it or leave it
    .... even if it means they will never be elected as 'prog gods'...

    (smile)

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    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  20. #45
    Member Paulrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    I agree that it might only appeal to the tail end of an audience.
    But I think they didn't care and this is exactly what they wanted to create.
    Probably, but wasn't there also an element of "We have to get something out and there's a dearth of new songs to record. I know -- let's use some of our live improvs to fill out the sides!" going on with this album?
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

  21. #46
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    FEATURED CD: King Crimson - Starless and Bible Black

    ^ ^ ^

    If you read Brufords's book, he did talk about that.

    But that doesn't change the fact that they were envisioned and created from the outset by RF as an improvising rock band; otherwise, why have Jamie Muir, whose previous gig was with Evan Parker and Derek Bailey. That wasn't a 'mistake' by RF; it was a specific slot he wanted filled!

    AND, anyway, more than half of side two is Fracture and it may be 'live' but Fracture ain't no improvisation!


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    Last edited by Steve F.; 07-15-2016 at 09:49 PM.
    Steve F.

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    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  22. #47
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    SaBB is THE great rock improvisation of the 70s.
    IMO, but I'm still very surprised you don't hear it....
    and Fracture?
    Buildup, tension, release, tension, release, tension, tension, TENSION!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It's everything I know I wanted MY rock music to be........

    Agreed.

    I was lukewarm on this album until I bought and heard The Great Deceiver box which gave me a much greater appreciation of Crimson in the live Dept, especially with the improvs. From that point on, I was sold on SaBB.
    WANTED: Sig-worthy quote.

  23. #48
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    This was the first King Crimson album I bought. At the time I was a teenager in the 1980s discovering the 70s prog rock scene. At first I was put off by the lack of a "real" keyboard player who knew how to work a synth. Then I came to appreciate the uniqueness of their approach to prog rock. Still, I wouldn't mind traveling to a parallel universe where they hired Eddie Jobson instead of David Cross!

  24. #49
    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    I agree that it might only appeal to the tail end of an audience.
    But I think they didn't care and this is exactly what they wanted to create. Take it or leave it
    Totally, I'm fine with that. The album has its fans, and the album has its fans who don't think it's the greatest thing the band ever did. Put me in the latter camp. It's certainly not an album I'd ever consider letting go. But is it a top favorite of mine? No. I think it's flawed, but still worthy in many ways. To me, it doesn't measure up to their best work - work which I'd assume was exactly what they wanted to be creating at that particular time as well. So what relevance that particular point has, I'm not sure.

    And don't get me started on the "Prog Gods" thing. I'd be hoping for an Akhenaten to wipe that whole shitshow away with alacrity.

    Bill

  25. #50
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    Agreed.

    I was lukewarm on this album until I bought and heard The Great Deceiver box which gave me a much greater appreciation of Crimson in the live Dept, especially with the improvs. From that point on, I was sold on SaBB.
    I was a total nut for this edition of the band even into the early 90s, whe The Great Deceiver was first released. I remember how excited I was when it came out and how revelatory it was to get FOUR JAM-FILLED CDs of more of this, including many improvs. WOWIE!
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

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