Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: VDGG - Are the remasters that dreadful???

  1. #1

    VDGG - Are the remasters that dreadful???

    Was reading recently how diff sounding the remaster of Godbluff sounds to the original. Not being a huge fan(own Godbluff and H to He) but still intrinqued, did they drop the ball
    on the '05 masters. I really enjoy Godbluff so if I need to get the Caroline Blue Plate version plz let me know???

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    717
    They are pretty clearly brickwalled. That said I do think they're alright, since the originals don't sound so good to begin with. For example I don't think there is a good "The Least We Can Do..." out there.
    Critter Jams "album of the week" blog: http://critterjams.wordpress.com

  3. #3
    At least the buggers have great bonus tracks.

  4. #4
    The 2015 SACD's of 'H to He' through to 'The Quiet Zone' are the best I've heard on digital format. Freshly remastered, full dynamics, and much better than the awful remasters overseen by PH. One or two did not surpass the original CD releases (in discussions I've read), but in general I find the SACD's as good or better than any other digital release I've heard. The SACD's also have all the bonus tracks, though they remain brick-walled and identical to the versions on the remasters.

    The bonus tracks are a mixed bag of bloody awful audience live concert recordings, but some really good demos, b-sides, and radio sessions. Depending on your budget and equipment, I would recommend the SHM SACD's from Japan, but if you want to stick to the CD's, then avoid the remasters, unless you really want the bonus tracks, and hunt down copies of the original CD releases.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,485
    My personal 'gold standard' of dubious (to be kind) mastering in this music are some of the Nick Davis' Genesis remixes. I don't recall the VDGG remasters being anywhere near that, in that I can listen to them! I'll have to listen again.

    I would agree though that those amateur live recordings were not suitable for release alongside these albums. They really went crazy with the noise reduction on the live tracks as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAMOOL View Post
    For example I don't think there is a good "The Least We Can Do..." out there.
    This is down to the mix, which shows its age...some hard panning on there.

  6. #6
    I iwsh they had included the actual 7" version of Theme One on the Pawn Hearts CD. Yes, they include some "alternate" version, but I'd really like to have the one I know from the LP version of the album. And as far as I know, that's only ever been issued on CD on some long out of print best of from the early 90's.

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Luton, England
    Posts
    27
    I don't think the masters are probably in great shape anyway, so remastering won't make them sound sonically great. PH's 2005 remasters aren't that bad for me, they sound a tad "processed" to my ears. Maybe he used no-noise or something. The best digital versions are the SHM-SACD's which are flat transfers of the original tapes. They are generally a good, natural listen. But, I think for classic VdGG, vinyl is probably still the best way to go.

  8. #8
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    in a cosmic jazzy-groove around Brussels
    Posts
    6,091
    Well, outside PH (which I owned since the late 70's), I only experienced VdGG through CDs (I couldn't get into Hammill's voice and Jaxon's sax things until the mid-90's) and even then, I thought I had to really be in the mood because of the muddy quality... So when the remasters came out, at first I was "wowed" by the fact that I heard things that weren't there before (or should I say were almost inadible)... Playing those remasters was at first a joy, but when confronted to hi-end hi-fi (I have mid-hi-end Hi-fi), they showed all their limitations


    Quote Originally Posted by JAMOOL View Post
    They are pretty clearly brickwalled. That said I do think they're alright, since the originals don't sound so good to begin with. For example I don't think there is a good "The Least We Can Do..." out there.

    Well, I think Hammill got caught in the loudness war trend (in full rage then) and didn't realize how wrong he was (not sure he still does nowadays, though)


    Quote Originally Posted by yesstiles View Post
    At least the buggers have great bonus tracks.
    yup, that's for sure... Though they present the same flaws as the albums they're collated with.
    Last edited by Trane; 06-11-2016 at 01:31 AM.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  9. #9

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Well, I think Hammill got g-caught in the loudness war trend (in full range then) nd didn't realize how wrong he was (not sure he still does nowadays, though)
    All of the studio albums and live albums out since then sound fine, so I guess he realized he was wrong at some stage...

  11. #11
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    in a cosmic jazzy-groove around Brussels
    Posts
    6,091
    Quote Originally Posted by flytomars View Post
    All of the studio albums and live albums out since then sound fine, so I guess he realized he was wrong at some stage...
    But did Hammill produce these 00's album himself? (not close to the albums to check it out)

    I"m hardly an expert, but there would be a fine line between a remastering old tapes and producing an album from A to Z
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  12. #12
    Member Kcrimso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Espoo, Finland
    Posts
    2,380
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    But did Hammill produce these 00's album himself? (not close to the albums to check it out)
    I think he has produced all of his 00´s solo albums by himself.
    My progressive music site: https://pienemmatpurot.com/ Reviews in English: https://pienemmatpurot.com/in-english/

  13. #13
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    in a cosmic jazzy-groove around Brussels
    Posts
    6,091
    OK, my buddy and I, we compared parts of the first-gen CD version and the remaster og PH and Godbluff

    We tried the more atmospheric VdGG... The first-gen stuff was definitely incredibly muddy on both albums... It sounds like one put heavy woven fabric inside the speakers. Undercover Man is totally ressucitated in the remastered version, and you feel "inside" the band - and you hear everything

    Plague is even more extreme of an example: You'd even think Hammill added some stuff (seagulls, fog horn) during the remasterded version. And once again, you feel like you're sitting between Banton and Jaxon, not in the rafter seats of some olympic stadium

    It's kind of clear that there is some heavy compression during the energetic moments, which are cringy...

    Not sure this was Hammill's doing, TBH

    Steven Wilson had done a first remaster version of some Tull albums and was totally disgusted to find out the final product didn't sound much like what he had achieved in the first place, because the record company added some compression after he'd submitted the firm his work... That's why he's recently redone Aqualung, apparently, thiss time, making sure that no-one touched it up before pressing the discs



    too bad we didn't have the vinyls on hand
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post

    Steven Wilson had done a first remaster version of some Tull albums and was totally disgusted to find out the final product didn't sound much like what he had achieved in the first place, because the record company added some compression after he'd submitted the firm his work... That's why he's recently redone Aqualung, apparently, thiss time, making sure that no-one touched it up before pressing the discs

    remix!

    from
    http://www.digitaltrends.com/feature...jBB1aIpMV3h0TA

    Q:
    I’ve spoken with many an artist who’s said, “I turned in my final approved master, and what I got back on the back end is not what I heard in studio at all.” You’ve taken control of the mastering stage yourself and you don’t have to give anyone instructions about what to do anymore, right?
    A:
    The simple answer is I don’t have any of my work mastered. It goes straight from my mixes — flat transfers onto the disc. And that applies to the mixes I do for the Yes reissues, the XTC reissues, the Jethro Tull reissues, and of course my own work too. And it’s amazing how many of the musicians I speak to, when I say to them, “I don’t want this mastered” — they’re initially shocked. But then they understand. Why would you need this mastered? You’ve approved the masters and you think the mixes sound great, so why would you not just release them as they are?

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    4,485
    ^It's true. Wilson went on record on the Steve Hoffman Forum, somewhat distancing himself from the original (2011-ish) mastering of the Aqualung remix. That's the only one, though, I think (not knowing more than about 3/4 of his I couldn't say for certain). It seems he's had more say since then.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    But did Hammill produce these 00's album himself? (not close to the albums to check it out)

    I"m hardly an expert, but there would be a fine line between a remastering old tapes and producing an album from A to Z
    Not a fine line.....a rather large one. Remastering is an art, to be sure; but proper producing (thinking: Daniel Lanois, Manfred Eicher) is more than making sure the band's there on time. It's a collaborative effort, where a common vision is (hopefully) attained and, with the expertise shared by producer, engineer and band members, be reached.

    But producing an album A-Z, if done properly (and unless a live album) is a, well, production. The best record I ever worked on was one engineered by an American engineer/producer, Jeffrey Lesser. I learned more about getting the sound I want out of my gear and onto 2" tape - yes, it was that far back - in a week than 15 years of experience had already given me. Talk about upping your game by working with others better than you....in this case it was good luck, but for me, a number of invaluable but surprisingly simple tips to getting your sound onto whatever device you record to.

    Anyway, he came up to town for 3 days ahead, and we rehearsed the material for those three days. He made arrangement ideas ranging from small to severe; in one case, removing two verses and doubling the final chorus. While there was some initial grumbling, he just said "try it." We did, and it was if the song we'd been looking for had suddenly emerged. So three days of pre-production. We then spent a week recording the album, so a little more than one tune/day. We recorded live, for the most part - guitar, bass and drums in one room (so lots of leakage, and we didn't care because it sounded better); singer in a booth and accordionist in a booth. It was good the accordionist was in a booth because, as great as her ideas were her time was terrible, so once the rhythm section got things down (I even recorded solos, for the most part, in-line and live, and only rarely did i have to add rhythm chords during one) she could take the time she needed to get it right. There was also a couple of days of fixing and overdubbing as the ideas presented themselves. But one thing I remember: when we were putting down takes, Lesser was in the room with us (bass, drums, guitar), almost drawing performances out of us. It was electrifying, and I know it somehow made me feel better when there was someone in the room reacting to, say, fills or a full solo...or even a rhythm part (which can often be harder).

    Then, the mix: one week. I wasn't there for all of it, but there was, once again, a lot gained by having Lesser at the board along with the studio's engineer, who was also one of the best I've ever worked with. Again, lessons learned, but:

    Bottom line: Preproduction: 3 days; Basic Recording: 7 days; Overdubs: 2 Days; Mix: 7 days.

    Lesser was involved from start to finish. So, measure that against remastering. Not saying it isn't an art in itself, but producing can encompass that skill and, if right, oh, so very much more.
    Last edited by jkelman; 06-11-2016 at 02:46 PM.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •