Avant-garde and RIO. How would you describe these types of prog to someone?

[NogbadTheBad]

I know it when I hear it.

[Baribrotzer]

This genre (which I'm not convinced even truly exists) is so vast and eclectic that trying to describe it would be nearly impossible. The reason I say I'm not sure it exists is because I don't think these artists originally sought out to try and be included under this sub-genre at websites like Progressive Archives, etc. Am I wrong there? I would think they just tried to make *music* that came from their heart and minds, and the finished product inevitably HAD to be labelled (because people love labeling things). To try and lump any/all of these artists, bands, composers into one pile and then trying formulate a genre with a specific set of musical parameters isn't really gonna work. What does Bob Drake, Stormy Six, Zs, Cardiacs, and Cardboard Amanda have in common? I don't know either. The best thing to do imo would be to choose about fifteen (15) or so highly regarded albums and tell them its a start. In a general sense, you could say this music is challenging, ground-breaking, contains challenging harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic ideas, and if there are lyrics - they usually don't include subject matter on stuff like elves, trolls, or flying rainbow guinea pigs (I said usually....)

What you've described is prog in general: a catchall term for a set of micro-genres, some of which don't have much in common, but which have related ancestries, related artistic philosophies, and which appeal to many of the same fans. RIO/avant is just a particularly uncompromising version of it. And it has the odd fractal property of being a subset of prog in general and having a tighter stylistic focus, yet still being equally undefinable.

[Nijinsky Hind]

Experimental, quoting nothing that has gone before. New, different, instinctive, raw, ridiculously simple or terribly complex. No references. Accidental. In many cases Un-intentional.

Thats all I got.

Edit: let me add that personally I don't believe avant garde is really a type of prog at all.

[Nijinsky Hind]

Oh.... and a lot of luck if it actually sticks to the wall. Heres avant garde that worked for me. Just because it has a trumpet doesn't make it jazz... Or does it?

[Scrotum Scissor]

Key term "On the European continent" [...] You obviously don't know Jazz.

Oh, believe me - I know it more than well enough. But perhaps you don't know too much of what has happened in both jazz and (what was once understood as) progressive rock only these past 10 years? About which locations and regions that have seen not a "resurgence" but a complete revolution of approaches, aesthetics and theory, also culturally speaking - and which names and waves that have influenced it? Oh, and don't bother to ask the traditionalists - they are just as obviously still encaptured by what gives their own identites sufficient confirmation and meaning. 'Cause after all, it was never about the music itself, was it?

[Totemist]

Experimental, quoting nothing that has gone before. New, different, instinctive, raw, ridiculously simple or terribly complex. No references. Accidental. In many cases Un-intentional.

Thats all I got.

ditto. although I would described it in different ways. but this post is better. now go listen!

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

What you've described is prog in general: a catchall term for a set of micro-genres, some of which don't have much in common, but which have related ancestries, related artistic philosophies, and which appeal to many of the same fans. RIO/avant is just a particularly uncompromising version of it. And it has the odd fractal property of being a subset of prog in general and having a tighter stylistic focus, yet still being equally undefinable.

^^^^
this

an angular style of Rock music which takes repeated listens to appreciate fully and is definitely not going to work for the garden variety Genesis and Yes fans who hold the most popular, biggest selling Prog bands in higher esteem than anything else.

[Steve F.]

I know it when I hear it.

Even better, I know to avoid threads like this like the plague of lighthouse keepers.

[Trane]

How would you describe these types of prog to someone?

To my wife: "Not our kind of prog".

Or how to kill my GF: put some avant-garde (jazz or rock) in the car on the highway, and she automatically opens the door and walks out.

[spacefreak]

The music the record companies didn't want you to hear.

[zombywoof]

It's what I call all the stuff I don't like.

[StevegSr]

Or how to kill my GF: put some avant-garde (jazz or rock) in the car on the highway, and she automatically opens the door and walks out.

To break up with an old flame, I played Trout Mask Replica non stop for a week. I still can't believe she stuck around that long!

[StevegSr]

Experimental, quoting nothing that has gone before. New, different, instinctive, raw, ridiculously simple or terribly complex. No references. Accidental. In many cases Un-intentional.

Thats all I got.

Edit: let me add that personally I don't believe avant garde is really a type of prog at all.

[simon moon]

According to ProgArchives.

Avant-prog is generally considered to be more extreme and 'difficult' than other forms of progressive rock, though these terms are naturally subjective and open to interpretation. Common elements that may or may not be displayed by specific avant-prog artists include:

- Regular use of dissonance and atonality.
- Extremely complex and unpredictable song arrangements.
- Free or experimental improvisation.
- Fusion of disparate musical genres.
- Polyrhythms and highly complex time signatures.

Most avant-prog artists are highly unique and eclectic in sound and consequently tend to resist easy comparisons. However, Frank Zappa is often cited as a major influence on many avant-prog artists due to his early adoption of avant-garde and experimental attitudes within a predominantly rock/jazz context.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

According to ProgArchives.

Avant-prog is generally considered to be more extreme and 'difficult' than other forms of progressive rock, though these terms are naturally subjective and open to interpretation. Common elements that may or may not be displayed by specific avant-prog artists include:

- Regular use of dissonance and atonality.
- Extremely complex and unpredictable song arrangements.
- Free or experimental improvisation.
- Fusion of disparate musical genres.
- Polyrhythms and highly complex time signatures.

Most avant-prog artists are highly unique and eclectic in sound and consequently tend to resist easy comparisons. However, Frank Zappa is often cited as a major influence on many avant-prog artists due to his early adoption of avant-garde and experimental attitudes within a predominantly rock/jazz context.

A lot of folks like to slight PA, but that definition of Avant Prog is spot on!

[StevegSr]

How would you describe Hot Rats?

Early jazz fusion.

As per PA:

According to ProgArchives.

Avant-prog is generally considered to be more extreme and 'difficult' than other forms of progressive rock, though these terms are naturally subjective and open to interpretation. Common elements that may or may not be displayed by specific avant-prog artists include:

- Regular use of dissonance and atonality.
- Extremely complex and unpredictable song arrangements.
- Free or experimental improvisation.
- Fusion of disparate musical genres.
- Polyrhythms and highly complex time signatures.

Most avant-prog artists are highly unique and eclectic in sound and consequently tend to resist easy comparisons. However, Frank Zappa is often cited as a major is often cited as a major influence on many avant-prog artists due to his early adoption of avant-garde and experimental attitudes within a predominantly rock/jazz context.

Thank you Simon Moon!

[Nijinsky Hind]

How would you describe Hot Rats?

As per PA:

According to ProgArchives.

Avant-prog is generally considered to be more extreme and 'difficult' than other forms of progressive rock, though these terms are naturally subjective and open to interpretation. Common elements that may or may not be displayed by specific avant-prog artists include:

- Regular use of dissonance and atonality.
- Extremely complex and unpredictable song arrangements.
- Free or experimental improvisation.
- Fusion of disparate musical genres.
- Polyrhythms and highly complex time signatures.

Most avant-prog artists are highly unique and eclectic in sound and consequently tend to resist easy comparisons. However, Frank Zappa is often cited as a major is often cited as a major influence on many avant-prog artists due to his early adoption of avant-garde and experimental attitudes within a predominantly rock/jazz context.

Thank you Simon Moon!

While Zappa was clearly an innovator and experimental, he was also very structured, composition oriented, and linear. his "sound" may have been avant garde but his "songs" dont seem to be. The def. says jazz rock and I do agree with that. And he fits neatly into the prog genre. Add a cartoon sountrack speeded up a bit and voila! More prog or art rock than many avant garde artists.

[Nijinsky Hind]

Someone here said Avant Garde is french for advance guard, and when you think about it, it's very true. Many of the genres (besides pop perhaps) were born from the avant garde... Prog, psych, punk, the blues, even new wave. All had pretty avant garde origins if you trace them back... Much classical was avant garde at inception.. Mozart, bartok.

So sometimes an experiment or style that seems unlikely to move us catches on, is distilled, and eventually becomes mainstream due to its assimilation into popular culture or an endless line of copycats.

Then we tag it with a catchy genre name.

Maybe avant garde would be best described as the mother of all genres

[Baribrotzer]

While Zappa was clearly an innovator and experimental, he was also very structured, composition oriented, and linear. his "sound" may have been avant garde but his "songs" dont seem to be. The def. says jazz rock and I do agree with that. And he fits neatly into the prog genre. Add a cartoon sountrack speeded up a bit and voila! More prog or art rock than many avant garde artists.

Frank is usually thrown into a category of his own, because he doesn't fit into any other box at all: Uncle Meat was avant-prog before there was such a thing as prog; he loved playing extended blues guitar solos over a pedal point or vamp; he also loved R&B and Fifties rock 'n roll; much of his material included rude, juvenile humor; and a distressing amount of it consisted of little else. Sometimes he's put together with Beefheart, since the two shared musicians and seem to have had a certain amount of influence on one another, but that's about it for pigeonholing him.

[Nijinsky Hind]

Frank is usually thrown into a category of his own, because he doesn't fit into any other box at all: Uncle Meat was avant-prog before there was such a thing as prog; he loved playing extended blues guitar solos over a pedal point or vamp; he also loved R&B and Fifties rock 'n roll; much of his material included rude, juvenile humor; and a distressing amount of it consisted of little else. Sometimes he's put together with Beefheart, since the two shared musicians and seem to have had a certain amount of influence on one another, but that's about it for pigeonholing him.

You are right! He made use of every genre available.

Comedy
Spoken word
Jazz
rock
Soundtrack
Blues
Doo wop
Prog
Avant garde lol
Pop
World music
Easy listening.
Mathrock?
More?

[Baribrotzer]

Mathrock?

Five-Five-FIVE is sorta math-rock, although the head also has echoes of Minimalism and Red-era Crimson:

[StevegSr]

Frank is usually thrown into a category of his own, because he doesn't fit into any other box at all..

I agree with that. There's Avant rock, RIO and Frank!

[Facelift]

How would you describe Hot Rats?

As per PA:

According to ProgArchives.

You can stop there, LOL.

When I need a good laugh, I'll look at how ProgArchives defines sub-genres.

I cannot entertain the idea that Hot Rats is "avant prog," with any degree of seriousness.

[StevegSr]

You can stop there, LOL.

When I need a good laugh, I'll look at how ProgArchives defines sub-genres.

I cannot entertain the idea that Hot Rats is "avant prog," with any degree of seriousness.

Same here. You're not the only person here intelligent enough to enjoy a good joke. I had fun and it was not at your expense, so laugh a bit and save on having facelifts.

[JJ88]

My exposure to RIO is limited so I tend to stay out of threads concerning it...but even based on this, I wouldn't say Hot Rats was RIO. It's a pretty conventional album for Zappa.

Maybe the other 60s Mothers albums would fit the bill better.