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Thread: Genesis Archive 1: 1967-1975 - List of Overdubs

  1. #1

    Genesis Archive 1: 1967-1975 - List of Overdubs

    Following the Steve Hackett show here in Atlanta a couple of weeks ago, I've been indulging in quite a bit of Genesis and pulled out my Archive Vol. 1 box-set for the first time in years. I've looked online and and am wondering if someone on here can direct me to a definitive list of the overdubs that were done to the original recordings. Distracting though they may be, I'm wanting to verify what I think are overdubs and what aren't. I'm sure at the time the merit of these overdubs were probably discussed ad infinitum on PE. I'd still be curious to get some thoughts.

    Thanks in advance!

    Steve
    www.10trecords.com
    Last edited by 10T Records; 05-03-2016 at 01:41 PM.

  2. #2
    The members of Genesis come across as the George Lucases of Prog. Tinkering with stuff that people already liked and either ruining it or creating something that is merely derivative of the original. None of it ever really improves anything.
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  3. #3
    I interviewed Hackett in 1998 and asked him just that. Here's what he re-did :

    - "a few things" on "Fly On The Windshield"
    - the solo at the end of "The Lamia" (the original, he explained, was "awful")
    - the tapping section in "Dancing Wïth The Moonlit Knight" ("just that part - I no longer have the octave divider and specific effect pedals I was using at the time")
    - the solo on "Firth Of Fifth"
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  4. #4
    What I recall being said about some of the vocals on The Lamb show was they were basically inaudible and it wasn't possible to fix the issue (probably due to Gabriel's costumes, but possibly mic and mixing board issues, I don't recall now). So basically he and the band wouldn't have released it otherwise. In that light, I think it's fine and it's nice to have since I don't have any boots of that show and it's the closest we will likely ever get to a high quality live version of the whole album, flawed as it is. I'm not really understanding why Hackett rerecorded the solo on Firth Of Fifth though. I have a boot of that show and the solo is perfect just as it was, there really is no difference that I can hear on his rerecorded version (has he ever played it any different?). The other stuff I will just have to take his word for it.

    All that said, it IS disappointing that they felt the need to do that as I would bet all of the fans of the PG era would have rather just had those live cuts warts and all (I know I would have).

  5. #5
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    You'd think if they were SO concerned about what they see as some sub-par moments that they'd have the balls to cancel the release, rather than release something that they KNOW they've altered such that the fans no longer really want it. Don't try to rewrite history to pretend you were perfect. I guess Floyd got something right when they said they weren't interested in releasing much live material, and told the fans they should just listen to the bootlegs.

  6. #6
    Oh I don't think there was any question us fans would buy it if we had known. I certainly would have. I didn't find out about the overdubs until I read the booklet, but I doubt it would have stopped me from buying it. I suspect that is true for most here. I don't think it's a problem they have such high standards, though I wish they would maybe just listen to what fans really want and not worry so much about perfection.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by infandous View Post
    What I recall being said about some of the vocals on The Lamb show was they were basically inaudible and it wasn't possible to fix the issue (probably due to Gabriel's costumes, but possibly mic and mixing board issues, I don't recall now).
    Except this is simply untrue.

    The complete Shrine performance in its original form is available via Wolfgang's Vault. From what I recall, vocal audibility is not a problem.

    My guess is that this "story" was sort of concocted mostly because Gabriel wanted to redo his vocals; for whatever reasons. There may have been a few areas where the vocals were low, I don't remember ... but redoing basically the entire vocal track for the performance? Poor decision, IMO. Distracting beyond belief.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    Except this is simply untrue.

    The complete Shrine performance in its original form is available via Wolfgang's Vault. Vocal audibility is not a problem.

    My guess is that this "story" was sort of concocted mostly because Gabriel wanted to redo his vocals; for whatever reasons.
    Yes, I've heard the bootleg, too. Nothing wrong with the vocals the vast majority of the time.

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    ^I suppose we should be grateful he didn't decide to 'improve' the vocals on the album remixes!

    The overdubbing is such that it should have been mentioned on the sticker that was on the back.

    The usual argument I get back is 'you do know live albums are often overdubbed'. Yes. But not 20 odd years later by a singer that sounds very different.

    Alternatively they could have, you know, left it alone and released it as it was. A terribly radical idea, I guess.
    Last edited by JJ88; 04-11-2017 at 01:50 PM.

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    For the life of me, I never found anything objectionable with the original Rainbow recordings before they were "doctored" on the Archive. Supper's Ready Redux is tragic. I'm happy I held onto my "From One Fan To all Others" boot box set....
    Last edited by -=RTFR666=-; 05-03-2016 at 02:26 PM.
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  11. #11
    Member Jay.Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    The usual argument I get back is 'you do know live albums are often overdubbed'. Yes. But not 20 odd years later by a singer that sounds very different.
    Maybe they should have hired a tribute band vocalist with a voice closer in timbre and range to Gabriel's around the original recording's time. If they'd wanted perfection that would have been the most reasonable and logical choice.

  12. #12
    Member Jay.Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    ^Alternatively they could have, you know, left it alone and released it as it was. A terribly radical idea, I guess.
    Impractical and harming the business too. Such a boxset would have to come with a "Warning! Contains unadulterated live music" sticker to protect them from a potential class action filed by misled and disenchanted buyers.
    Last edited by Jay.Dee; 05-04-2016 at 08:05 AM.

  13. #13
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    Here's a list I found on the net a few years ago with the overdubs for the vocals. It's pretty much accurate to my ears. PG also redid some vocals on a few sections of Suppers' Ready, it's quite easy to hear.
    As for Hackett's guitar parts, it's pretty much what Calyx said, but he forgot Hairless Heart which has clearly been overdubbed on classical guitar, whereas the original recording is played on electric (with a major screw up). I also have doubts on The Chamber Of 32 Doors which has a perfectly flawless solo on the boxset and I can't remember if it's actually identical on the original recording.
    Also of note is the fact that Hackett may have overdubbed a lead electric guitar part on the intro of Twilight Alehouse (which is actually remix, although that's not credited in the liner notes). This lead guitar part is absent on the original 7" mix of the song, and it's unclear if it was found on the original multitrack tapes of the song of if Hackett overdubbed it to be true to the way the song was played live at the time.

    CDs 1 and 2: Shrine Auditorium, LA, 24th January 1975

    1- The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (1995 studio vocals w some 75 mix in end)
    2- Fly On A Windshield (1995 studio vocals)
    3- Broadway Melody Of 1974 (75 live vocals)
    4- Cuckoo Cocoon (1995 studio vocals)
    5- In The Cage (1995 studio vocals)
    6- The Grand Parade Of Lifeless Packaging (Mix of 95 Studio &75live vocals)
    7- Back In N.Y.C. (1995 studio vocals)
    8- Hairless Heart
    9- Counting Out Time (1995 studio vocals)
    10-Carpet Crawlers (1995 studio vocals)
    11-The Chamber Of 32 Doors (75 live vocals)
    12-Lilywhite lilith (75 live vocal`s ,with just two words from 95 studio)
    13-The waiting room
    14-Anyway (75 live vocals)
    15-Here comes the supernatural Anaesthetist(75 live vocals)
    16-The lamia (1995 studio vocals)
    17-Silent sorrow in empty boats
    18-The Colony of slippermen ( 1995 studio vocals)
    19-Ravine
    20-The light dies down on broadway (1995 studio vocals)
    21-Riding the scree (75 live vocals)
    22-In the rapids (1995 studio vocals)
    23-IT (new remix of the74 sessions with 1995 studio vocals)
    Not just a Genesis fanboy.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    Except this is simply untrue.

    The complete Shrine performance in its original form is available via Wolfgang's Vault. From what I recall, vocal audibility is not a problem.

    My guess is that this "story" was sort of concocted mostly because Gabriel wanted to redo his vocals; for whatever reasons. There may have been a few areas where the vocals were low, I don't remember ... but redoing basically the entire vocal track for the performance? Poor decision, IMO. Distracting beyond belief.
    Ah, okay, I think I remember reading this before now. Well, in that case, I agree it was a terrible idea. I still don't mind the recording though, but I guess I really should seek out a proper bootleg of that show.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by -=RTFR666=- View Post
    For the life of me, I never found anything objectionable with the original Rainbow recordings before they were "doctored" on the Archive. Supper's Ready Redux is tragic. I'm happy I held onto my "From One Fan To all Others" boot box set....

    Yeah, I agree. I have a boot of the Rainbow show, and aside from fairy poor sound (listenable, but rough) there was no reason to "fix" anything other than cleaning up the sound.

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    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infandous View Post
    Oh I don't think there was any question us fans would buy it if we had known. I certainly would have. I didn't find out about the overdubs until I read the booklet, but I doubt it would have stopped me from buying it. I suspect that is true for most here. I don't think it's a problem they have such high standards, though I wish they would maybe just listen to what fans really want and not worry so much about perfection.
    Yeah, I wasn't saying we wouldn't buy it, just that they should have known (and must have) it wasn't what we wanted.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    ^I suppose we should be grateful he didn't decide to 'improve' the vocals on the album remixes!

    The overdubbing is such that it should have been mentioned on the sticker that was on the back.

    The usual argument I get back is 'you do know live albums are often overdubbed'. Yes. But not 20 odd years later by a singer that sounds very different.
    Warning: Youthful vocals have been rerecorded by an old man.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    My goodness! That's pretty insane!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by 10T Records View Post
    My goodness! That's pretty insane!
    speaking about commitment...interesting website
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  21. #21
    In my opinion PG did the right thing wanting to overdub most of his vocals.
    The show is much more enjoyable that way. It may not be the 'real thing', but that one is available as well anyway, so it's not a problem.
    Had they released the archive set without overdubs i would have probably only listened to the lamb just once, now i still listen to it from time to time.

  22. #22
    not an "overdub", but also Phil's drums (from the multi-tracks) were fed through some awful modern reverb to 'beef them up' as opposed to the 'dry' mix heard on the WV two-track KBFH mixdown.
    "Wouldn't it be odd, if there really was a God, and he looked down on Earth and saw what we've done to her?" -- Adrian Belew ('Men In Helicopters')

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    Except this is simply untrue.

    The complete Shrine performance in its original form is available via Wolfgang's Vault. From what I recall, vocal audibility is not a problem.

    My guess is that this "story" was sort of concocted mostly because Gabriel wanted to redo his vocals; for whatever reasons. There may have been a few areas where the vocals were low, I don't remember ... but redoing basically the entire vocal track for the performance? Poor decision, IMO. Distracting beyond belief.
    Except those stories actually date back to the 80's. I recall on a couple different occasoins, it being said that the Slipperman costume was designed in such a fashion that he couldn't get a mic close enough to his face to for his vocals to be properly amplified. It's mentioend in one of the books that was out at the time, and it was also mentioned in the documentary MTV did circa Invisible Touch.

  24. #24
    I prefer the overdubbed Lamb.
    They couldn't release it as it was, the original vocals are very raw and difficult to tolerate in places.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    You know, listening to a few of those comparisons, I think Gabriel did the right thing. Some of those original vocals are pretty shrill and rough sounding. I guess if I had heard the un-doctored version of that show first, I might feel differently (like I do with Supper's Ready.......I've had the boot of that show for many years, and the vocal differences just seem jarring to me).

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