Frank Zappa: Better with the Mothers?

[ThomasKDye]

The Zappa stuff with the most replayability for me is the "Freak Out" through "Money" run of albums. (I didn't like "Lumpy Gravy" much when I heard it. but it's been fifteen years.) I think Ray Collins has a great voice, JCB's presence gives it an air of fun ("Not another year of SKYEWL") and Zappa's youth and relative idealism gives the music a flair it doesn't have in later years. "Absolutely Free" is my favorite album of Zappa's actually... it's his "Close to the Edge" or "Thick as a Brick" in that I have to play the whole thing; I can't just play one or two songs.

[GuitarGeek]

From a general perception standpoint, I am unfortunately correct. For much of the 70s, Zappa was perceived as a parodist along the lines of Weird Al Yankovic, and his songs were played right along with Weird Al's on the Dr. Demento radio show. Valley Girl? Dancing Fool? Jewish Princess? Thousands of listeners tuned in just for a laugh.

Well, yeah, but you're singling out one particular aspect of the music while ignoring everything else. Look at this way, if let's say there's evidence somewhere that Frank thought The Grand Wazoo, Waka/Jawaka or One Size Fits All were superior to let's say Cruising With Reuben And The Jets, Freak Out or Absolutely Free, would he have necessarily been wrong? Depends on what you're looking for in Frank's music.

I know I'm not the only person who prefers Frank's instrumental work over the vocal stuff. And I'm sure there's probably people who go the other way. I forget which band member it was who said you could feel the energy in the room change whenever Frank's guitar tech handed a guitar to Frank, because there was a contingency in the audience who thought the guitar solos were "boring". For me, Frank playing guitar would have been one of the reasons I would have been in the room that night, if I had been given the chance to actually see Frank play.

[zombywoof]

I like music from virtually all phases of Frank's music. My favorite Zappa albums include Lumpy Gravy (would have been better without the spoken word silliness, but there ya go), Hot Rats, Uncle Meat, Burnt Weenie Sandwich, Weasels Ripped My Flesh, Waka/Jawaka, Grand Wazoo, One Size Fits All, Guitar, FZ Meets The Mothers Of Prevention, Them Or Us, etc. Even the albums I don't particularly like (eg Joe's Garage, Sheik Yerbouti, etc) have at least a few things on them I like.

The one era of Frank's career I'm kinda vague on is the Flo And Eddie era. The only album I own is the Fillmore East thing (on vinyl, so it's got both Willie The Pimp tracks), but my impression of that era is that it's high on vocals and dated comedy routines, and low on interesting instrumental compositions (which is why I listen to Frank's music). So I've tended to avoid those records, though I know I should own at least Chunga's Revenge, as that apparently has some good instrumental stuff on it.

Chunga's is just a great rock record with amazing guitar work. It occasionally flirts with composition (20 Small Cigars), but to me that album is all about the guitar, bass, drum and vocal work and sounds.

[mogrooves]

Frank Zappa: Better with the Mothers?

Yes, depending on when "the Mothers" became "Frank Zappa."

[StevegSr]

Yes, depending on when "the Mothers" became "Frank Zappa."

Lost me on this one. Could you expand a bit, please?

[chalkpie]

"Absolutely Free" is my favorite album of Zappa's actually... it's his "Close to the Edge" or "Thick as a Brick" in that I have to play the whole thing; I can't just play one or two songs.

I adore that album as well. And agreed, its an *album*, not just a bunch of songs.

[pb2015]

The one era of Frank's career I'm kinda vague on is the Flo And Eddie era. The only album I own is the Fillmore East thing (on vinyl, so it's got both Willie The Pimp tracks), but my impression of that era is that it's high on vocals and dated comedy routines, and low on interesting instrumental compositions (which is why I listen to Frank's music). So I've tended to avoid those records, though I know I should own at least Chunga's Revenge, as that apparently has some good instrumental stuff on it.

Chunga's is more or less two albums thrown together, half Hot Rats Pt 2 and half 200 Motels Prelude.

[gpeccary]

I think his earlier work, was far more daring than what he was doing later. Perhaps what he was doing earlier morphed into his later work meaning the complexity, the way he edited old and new into one as on the You can't do that on stage anymore collection. He was ALWAYS ground breaking, but to me, not as much as he earlier work. Of course, the musicianship became more and more unreal in his later evolutions. I don't know if i can explain it any better than that.
And I have to agree with some comments above about his "silliness" over shadowing his genius. All too often, when I mention Zappa, or his genius and brilliance, i get eye rolls and responses about huskies yellow snow and blow jobs. I have to tell them to back up, forget the lyrics and listen to the music. He constantly bitched that people didn't take him seriously, and quite frankly, he gave them plenty of reasons not to.
If I listen to his later work, I find it much less interesting to me on those grounds now than his earlier work when it WASN'T all about spindles and blow jobs. The genius is still there no doubt, it just became harder to see. The musicianship is second to NONE! But Im a huge fan, and LOVE his work, but for the average listener, his lyrical content is a huge turn off.

[rcarlberg]

Lost me on this one. Could you expand a bit, please?

At some point Frank stopped crediting records to "FZ & the MOI" and just started releasing them as Frank Zappa. He still had a band of Mothers who played all the music, but he no longer credited them.

They became in effect his hired hands, interchangeable studio musicians who sometimes went out on th road with him. I think he preferred them to be anonymous, like his Synclavier.

[StevegSr]

At some point Frank stopped crediting records to "FZ & the MOI" and just started releasing them as Frank Zappa. He still had a band of Mothers who played all the music, but he no longer credited them.

They became in effect his hired hands.

Gotcha, thanks.

[Trane]

I've always appreciated the albums that featured Aynsley Dunbar, George Duke, Ian Underwood, Jean-Luc Ponty and Sugarcane Harris more than Mothers albums.

definitely my fave era as well (roughly 69 to 74)... I believe I only own Sleep Dirt outside that time frame

I generally prefer the non mothers stuff.....but it feels like splitting hairs to me...it's ALL good. Well, except the Flo and Eddie stuff.

Well that's why PA chose not to separate the MOI and "solo" stuff >> just too mixed-up, as MOI members were guesting on almost all of his albums

Well, personally, I could never get in the MOI line-up and their satyrical stuff... Before Zappa hit solo with Hot Rats, I can do totally without the MOI - even the solo Gravy.
And I also never "got" the Flo & Eddie stuff

Chunga's is more or less two albums thrown together, half Hot Rats Pt 2 and half 200 Motels Prelude.

didn't know that, but it makes sense, actually

[Jay.Dee]

Strange things going on here... Prog crowd bashing the band which delivered Zappa's proggiest epic - "Billy the Mountain".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_the_Mountain#Story

[Progatron]

Strange things going on here... Prog crowd bashing the band which delivered Zappa's proggiest epic - "Billy the Mountain".

That's perhaps the one I dislike the most. Some parts are okay, but Flo & Eddie are intolerable in other parts.

[Steve F.]

Define 'later'.

A lot of people consider Joe's Garage a later work and I love it. It's probably his last truly great one, though. I'm one of those weirdos who loves almost all the Zappa stuff from 66-79.

I remember hearing the double vinyl of Joe's when it first came out and not liking ONE THING on it. That was the 1st time I hadn't heard at least one good song on a FZ album...

It was also a very long time ago....

[JJ88]

That's perhaps the one I dislike the most. Some parts are okay, but Flo & Eddie are intolerable in other parts.

I like them in The Turtles, but that period is some of Zappa's weaker work IMHO- too heavy on the scatological humour for me. Flo and Eddie come across like a couple of giggling schoolboys saying rude words.

However, there's still various gems even in that period.

[Steve F.]

There's gems in every aspect of FZs work - he was too brilliant for there NOT to be - but I mostly abhor the Flo and Eddie period as well.

[Trane]

I remember hearing the double vinyl of Joe's when it first came out and not liking ONE THING on it. That was the 1st time I hadn't heard at least one good song on a FZ album...

It was also a very long time ago....

well, the music wasn't bad, but the storyline sounded like a very weak 2112 and the scatological thing was such an open bait to teen boys that it was quite a turn-off for me... but TBH, Joe's Garage is the last point that I lump with the Sensation/Yerbouti/Bobby Brown era.

I like them in The Turtles, but that period is some of Zappa's weaker work IMHO- too heavy on the scatological humour for me. Flo and Eddie come across like a couple of giggling schoolboys saying rude words.

Well, it wasn't just that period... the later 70's also delved in that kind of stuff

[chalkpie]

Strange things going on here... Prog crowd bashing the band which delivered Zappa's proggiest epic - "Billy the Mountain".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_the_Mountain#Story

No bashing from me - I love both 'Fillmore' and 'Band from LA', actually add 'Playground Psychotics' to that list. I prefer the extended version of "Billy" on Playground - it has a very sweet FZ solo and some nice woodwind playing from Underwood. The very first album in chronological order that I question is 'Them or Us', and to be honest some of it has to do with the production. Otherwise, I pretty much find the good in every release prior, obviously digging some more than others, but all worthy of my heart and mind.

[happytheman]

...it's ALL good. Well, except the Flo and Eddie stuff.

Sent from my SCH-S738C using Tapatalk

Not much love here for Flo and Eddie.. Geez.. I first heard Just another band.. and Live at the Fillmore when I was in High School.. loved it then and still get a chuckle out of Billy the Mountain.. Regarding question.. There's a lot to be said for the Freak Out Absolutely Free WOIIFOTM Uncle Meat period.. Someone mentioned the Jimmy Carl Black interview.. recently viewed that on Youtube.. there's also an audio only of Jimmy's story that's quite good as well.. think I found that on Youtube as well.. He covers that period extensively.. a lot of bitterness in his voice for sure.

[señormoment]

My streamlined perspective is that the Mothers disbanded with 'Burnt Weenie Sandwich.' After that, it's all Frank Zappa, and the subsequent use of 'Mothers' seems arbitrary on his part. That just simplifies it for me.
I'm more inclined to listen to the more recent recordings than any of the MoI material.

[Dave (in MA)]

I loved the MOI but that goddamn Estrada has pretty much ruined my enjoyment of a bunch of it.

[Reginod]

Zappa was more or less wonderful from beginning to end, with an ebb and flow (and Eddie? ) depending on the particular album or composition.

[profusion]

Jimmy Carl Black's primitive drumming skills severely limited the possibilities of the original MOI. The rest of the band was quite accomplished, however, and Frank definitely was more willing during that era to push the envelope conceptually.

For me, Frank's music reached more its potential after he disbanded the MOI, because he could hire the right musicians for each project and phase (and by then he could afford to hire the best).

[Trane]

My streamlined perspective is that the Mothers disbanded with 'Burnt Weenie Sandwich.' After that, it's all Frank Zappa, and the subsequent use of 'Mothers' seems arbitrary on his part. That just simplifies it for me.
I'm more inclined to listen to the more recent recordings than any of the MoI material.

I can live +/- with that end-MOI assessment

[Jay.Dee]

Jimmy Carl Black's primitive drumming skills severely limited the possibilities of the original MOI.

I have the same impression after listening to their live stuff, e.g. Road Tapes #1. I do not know whether he had required skills or not, but his drumming style and approach could have been a much better fit for, say, the Who or the Move, with all the respect for Keith Moon and Bev Bevan. For the music composed by Zappa it was just a jarring mismatch to these ears.

Having that said, I must admit that I really like Flo & Eddie period. On live performance terms it is probably the second favourite Zappa band, right after the 73-74 edition (in all its minor variations). It had still the 60s loose eclectic vibe I love so much with the necessary instrumental prowess ensured (Aynsley Dunbar!).

The original Fillmore East is good, but the vault Carnegie Hall 1971 release is my absolute favourite from that period. Lots of great playing and much less disruptive talking. Even Billy the Mountain has a separately marked 14 minute long instrumental section for those who are not interested in the lyrical plot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carneg...Zappa_album%29