Charlie Watts, Ringo Starr: Better than Bruford

[Staun]

It's Rolling Stone. They generally have a collective IQ slightly less than Granite. They display that IQ properly here.

Heck, the guy downstairs putting in my wood floor didn't make the list either. I'll go with dead brick.

[Digital_Man]

Well at least Buddy Rich isn't number one and I'm actually quite surprised. Most people I talk to about drummers seem to think he is the greatest bar none.

[Zeuhlmate]

In that generation I prefer Elvin Jones - but how to measure who is the best...

[Rufus]

Well at least they can't blame Phil Collins for ruining the list 'cos he ain't even on it! Has he ever made any 'top drummers' list? I've never seen him on any!

[GuitarGeek]

Well at least Buddy Rich isn't number one and I'm actually quite surprised. Most people I talk to about drummers seem to think he is the greatest bar none.

That's because he's the drummer they've heard of. And the reason they've heard of him, whereas they may have never heard of Elvin Jones, Max Roach or Roy Haynes, is down to publicity. Buddy made it a practice of appearing on any and every talk show and variety show that would have him. He'd go on and play drum solos, or engage in "duels" with whoever the drummer in the house band was. He even did a Muppet Show, where the drum duel ended with Animal crowning Buddy with one of his floor toms, in frustration. The majority of the people who know Buddy Rich is or who thinks he was the be all end all, probably couldn't name a single record he played on.

[Zeuhlmate]

He should be - his early Genesis work and in Brand X is top notch!

[JJ88]

I can't believe the Top 25 doesn't include Phil Collins- he's absurdly low, for a player that is so diverse. No doubt Rufus will add this to his list of 'drummers' polls'!

Well at least they can't blame Phil Collins for ruining the list 'cos he ain't even on it! Has he ever made any 'top drummers' list? I've never seen him on any!

Predictable, and obsessed, as ever.

[ronmac]

Typical RS list:

"Greatest ________ in Our Record Collections"

[Adm.Kirk]

Actually, Phil is on the list. Alan White is also missing. For those who think Watts and Starr shouldn't be included, then you have missed out. Bruford, Peart are very different from Watts and Starr. Who's better? Who cares. They are all great.

I didn't notice Palmer missing. Him and White's omission is just wrong.

Bill

[infandous]

A list obviously put together by a non-drummer who never listened to the albums. No Carl Palmer (of that little bar band Emerson, Lake and Palmer)? No Lenny White (of Return to Forever)? No Mike Shrieve (Santana - watch Soul Sacrifice at Woodstock for Christ's sake!)? No Cozy Powell (Rainbow and Jeff Beck)?

Fucking stupid list!

Mike Shrieve is number 74.

[infandous]

Well, to be fair there are a LOT of great drummers in that list. Also, it's just a list compiled by Rolling Stone who I'm pretty sure never had much credibility on this board anyway. I could disagree with the order and with a number of the inclusions (at the expense of, IMO, much better drummers), but there are a surprising number of interesting choices like Steve Gadd, Gene Kruppa, Tony Williams, Terry Bozzio, etc.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Where's Helen friggin' WIGGIN?!?

[Supersonic Scientist]

I'll add this. The fact that Shelly Manne is missing is a complete travesty !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[StevegSr]

First of all, they don't. Look at the article in question, where Nos. 1-to-4 are Bonham, Moon, Baker, and Peart, in order. All monster players with very different styles. Meanwhile, Charlie is No. 12 and Ringo is No. 14.

But to consider your question on a larger scale, it comes down to this: Because they have different standards. After those first few standouts, they're much more likely to praise minimal, play-for-the-song pocket drummers, masters of the expected and appropriate, and greatly prefer them to musical extroverts like almost any major prog drummer you can name. These are guys who just love classic Sixties hit records above all else, or more recent punk that pays stylistic tribute to classic hits. So they save their greatest praise for old-time sessionmen like Hal Blaine or Bernard Purdie or Roger Hawkins, who could come up with some perfect little lick that made a hit record into a hit.

Indeed, I'm surprised that Peart, Bruford, and Vander made it in at all.

My reply to you was scattershot and not directed at the RS post of Top 100 Drummers, but of the standard tone of RS in general, where a punk drummer is praised for his simplicity and the prog drummer demonized for his complexity, so my apologies for that.

As far as RS lionizing old sixties rock, I have to disagree. They may look a the critic's book to pick out the standards, but their audience is composed for hip hop and Miley Cyrus fans.

Btw, the RS 100 Drummers List was not bad, IMO, but grossly incomplete.

[StevegSr]

Rolling Stone publishes another list.

Everyone gets angry about it.

They get tons of clicks.

Mission accomplished.

This.

[Watanabe]

Totally gutted David Kipiani didn't make the list.

[PeterG]

I'd rather listen to Watts, Starr, Collins and Mason than Bruford. I prefer meat & potatoes drumming with my rock rather than complex fusion drumming. As for Rich and Krupa they just bore me.

[Zeuhlmate]

Bruford is not complex fusion drumming, but he has character that really contributes to whatever he is in.

[Digital_Man]

That's because he's the drummer they've heard of. And the reason they've heard of him, whereas they may have never heard of Elvin Jones, Max Roach or Roy Haynes, is down to publicity. Buddy made it a practice of appearing on any and every talk show and variety show that would have him. He'd go on and play drum solos, or engage in "duels" with whoever the drummer in the house band was. He even did a Muppet Show, where the drum duel ended with Animal crowning Buddy with one of his floor toms, in frustration. The majority of the people who know Buddy Rich is or who thinks he was the be all end all, probably couldn't name a single record he played on.

No, I think there's more to it than that. A lot of people who mention BR as the best drummer are drummers themselves and they certainly know of many different drummers. Not all of them think he was the greatest but a lot do. The man had skills and there's no denying that but he played on a relatively small drum set. I would love to see how he would go up against someone like Carl Palmer or Neil Peart.

[JJ88]

^Well both of those were influenced by Rich...Peart put together some all-star tribute album, I seem to recall.

Never thought of Phil Collins as being 'meat and potatoes'. In this particular genre, someone like Graeme Edge would fit that description better.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I would love to see how he would go up against someone like Carl Palmer or Neil Peart.

Look. Seriously. Rich would *NOT* have to "go up" against someone like those.

Have you seen the Oscarr-winning movie Whiplash from last year? I'm afraid to say that both Palmer or Peart would have a hard time "going up" against the standards of drumming at academic level. Or against someone like Guigou Chenevier or Morgan Ågren or Tatsuya Yoshida for that matter.

[The Crimson King]

No Nicko McBrain? He and Bruford are my favorites. Yes I'm just a non-musician ignorant fan.

[regenerativemusic]

These lists are also hated by film enthusiasts when mainstream media make their list of the "best silent films" or "best films of all times."

[StevegSr]

Bruford is not complex fusion drumming, but he has character that really contributes to whatever he is in.

Bruford had the ability to do repeatable millisecond changes to his beats and that's pretty complex.