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Thread: King Crimson, Live in Toronto, an alternative review

  1. #1

    King Crimson, Live in Toronto, an alternative review

    Quick thoughts on the new King Crimson live album, Live in Toronto a 2015 recording by the new septet, playing a set ranging from “The Court of the Crimson King” to some new material. This isn't a bad album, but it is a long way from being a great album. The five albums I got before this one happened to be:

    Delta Saxophone Quartet with Gwilym Simcock: Crimson! (a mostly covers album of Crimson pieces)
    The Morgaua Quartet: Atom Heart Mother is on the Edge (a Japanese string quartet doing prog pieces, including “Red” and “Peace-Fallen Angel including Epitaph”)
    Eddie Jobson: Four Decades
    UK: Curtain Call
    Zakir Hussain: Making Music

    ... and they're all better.

    The latest incarnation of King Crimson has abandoned the band's usual approach and gone for the nostalgia market that dominates the prog rock scene, a market the band have already targeted with umpteen mega-deluxe collectors' edition re-releases. In that context, after several bank-account-busting box sets, this release is value for money, a 2CD release for just £10.

    Some Crim fans have argued that it's not nostalgia because of magic reasons to do with Crimson being different. I understand why bands focus on nostalgia. There's nothing wrong with nostalgia. The set/track list offers your 'greatest hits', so to speak, of King Crimson, save for skipping over the 1980s. These are good picks.

    There is a little bit of new material. Ignoring the filler, like the intro soundscape, the new pieces amount to just “Radical Action to Unseat the Hold of Monkey Mind”/“Meltdown”. Classic bands are in a bind: dismissed as nostalgia if they don't play new pieces, but criticised when the new pieces aren't up to scratch. Well, yes, the same applies here: “Radical Action...” is generic, Crimson-by-numbers. “Meltdown” is the better piece and a chance for Jakszyk to bring something of himself to the role. It mixes a bit of Jakszyk's style with a Crimson sound. But it also feels a bit unfinished. “Meltdown” could be compared to UKZ's “Radiation”, but the latter is the better piece of music and a better piece of Crimson music.

    We do get two new drum trio pieces as well, but neither does all that much with the format. “Banshee Legs Bell Hassle” is over before its begun. “Hell Hounds of Krim” bores. Compare One, the album by Pete Lockett's Network of Sparks feat. Bill Bruford, for what a multi-percussion piece can do.

    By the way, the ever more boastful and grandiose titles, like “Radical Action to Unseat the Hold of Monkey Mind” and “Hell Hounds of Krim”, ring ever more hollow when paired with below-average offerings!

    But the core problem with this recording is a certain stilted, lumpen quality to the performance. Just in places, but enough that I spent as much time remembering better versions of these songs than coming back to these versions. It's the Wetton-era material that seems to suffer most, like “Red” and “Easy Money”, both lacking bite (compare Wetton and Jobson on Curtain Call), although “Level Five” also drags. Some have suggested this is a result of the band using a click track and the challenges of keeping the three drummers in sync. If that is the case, it wasn't a price worth paying.

    The inclusion of three percussionists and of Collins does add a distinct flavour to the affair and they are sometimes used well, like as on parts of “Larks 1” and “Red”. Collins is good on “Starless”. Yet despite the unusual line-up, the material is not radically re-worked: compare what the Delta Saxophone Quartet + Simcock do, or The Morgaua Quartet.

    The band are best on the material from the first four albums, a reminder at this time of what Greg Lake could do, but why not just crack out your old 21st Century Schizoid Band albums if you want to hear Collins and Jaksyzk play those classics?

    What the band does well is give a sense of unity to the diverse Crimson back catalogue. There is this almost steampunk sound the line-up brings across piece, uniting the likes of “Larks 1”, “Pictures of a City” and “VROOOM”. At best, we get some solid performances: “The ConstruKction of Light” and “The Letters/Sailor's Tale” stood out for me.

    If the unity of the band, a certain crispness, is missing, the individuals play well when considered separately. Jakszyk sings well. I'd single out Levin for praise, and why he isn't allowed a greater role in coming up with new material, I don't know.

    A great jazz musician once said that music is a reflection of who and where you are. If that is the case, then this King Crimson is about Fripp's comfort. Nothing here challenges our idea of what Crimson can be... which thus means it misses the whole point of being King Crimson.

    I am reacting against some overly hagiographic reviews of the album and have written more of negatives than positives. This isn't a bad album. You get some classic Crimson played by some classic Crimson members (plus a fine substitute). If you want a more radical deconstruction of old Crimson numbers, I do recommend the Delta Saxophone Quartet's Crimson! If you want some '70s classics played with more fire, Four Decades and Curtain Call are now available at a reasonable price on iTunes after an earlier Japanese physical release.
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  2. #2
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Henry

    you're a brave man!

    best of luck!
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  3. #3
    Brave indeed. Now i have to hear it for myself, although really, i've not been overly excited to. I'm sure it's quite excellent but i think fresh material might be more interesting to me. I say this without having yet really heard very much. But what i have heard was underwhelming musically (to me... ymmv yada squonk).
    And the code is a play, a play is a song, a song is a film, a film is a dance...

  4. #4
    Best line in the entire review, AND, sums up what I (and maybe some others) believe is the true spirit of KC.


    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    Nothing here challenges our idea of what Crimson can be... which thus means it misses the whole point of being King Crimson.

  5. #5
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    I haven't heard Toronto yet, but I saw a show on the tour and have Orpheum. As much as I liked it, I would prefer that they concentrate on development of new material, otherwise they're just an expanded 21st C. Schizoid Band.

  6. #6
    So bands are nostalgia acts by virtue of playing music they composed. Got it.

    I love this board, but if it's taught me anything it's that a large part of enjoying music is applying labels, apparently.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    The five albums I got before this one happened to be [etc etc] ... and they're all better.
    Better how? By what criteria? No snark; I just have no idea how to take that intro since it's a) hopelessly vague and b) enough of an apples/oranges thing to be irrelevant to the subject of Toronto.

    I'd definitely put LTiA1, TCoL, Sailor's Tale and Vrooom as the highlights, but I'd also include Level Five, which doesn't drag to these ears at all. It's supposed to be dramatically mid-tempo; that's part of how the composition works.

    If the unity of the band, a certain crispness, is missing, the individuals play well when considered separately.
    That's an interesting thought. I've always felt that this Crimson is different from the others by virtue of having the most unity. Everyone does shine, but they're aiming to play more as a single unit than ever.

    I do think the lineup shift and triple-drum line offer some good potential to do different things (maybe even challenge our idea of what Crimson can be), even if I'm also disappointed at such a backwards-looking setlist.

  8. #8
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesmanzi View Post
    So bands are nostalgia acts by virtue of playing music they composed. Got it.
    It's a roughly 2 hour release and only something like 16 minutes is new to this band, including the walk-on soundscape.
    That's all people are saying.

    This one doesn't even include a Scarcity track.

  9. #9
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    I generally agree with Henry on his Crimson nostalgia act posts but this time I think it goes a little too far. I find some fire, bite and energy in this release that I didn't get from Orpheum. Complaining about KC releasing live albums is a bit redundant as Fripp has clearly shown that there is a buying public for this stuff. Personally I bought it as a reminder of a wonderful concert experience and because I like Collin's playing on a lot of this. I would agree that it the early stuff that shines most, my favorites were Pictures Of A City, The Letters & Sailors Tale.

    I like jazz take on KC so I may pick up Delta Saxophone Quartet but I don't see it as an alternative to scratching the Crimbo itch. As to coughing up $50 for another Jobson retread of a four album career I think I'll pass thank you very much.

    So Henry, interesting post, some stuff on the money, but overall not my feeling at all.
    Ian

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    Member Proghound's Avatar
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    Not sure what you are listening to. This is one of the best recorded live albums I have ever heard. The music and mix are excellent and the additional drummers sound better on this recording than when I saw them live. The additional percussion and Mel Collins adds new twists to old favorites as well. Truly an amazing album, don't listen to the haters... get it and listen for yourself. I love this album, absolutely top shelf.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proghound View Post
    Not sure what you are listening to. This is one of the best recorded live albums I have ever heard. The music and mix are excellent and the additional drummers sound better on this recording than when I saw them live. The additional percussion and Mel Collins adds new twists to old favorites as well. Truly an amazing album, don't listen to the haters... get it and listen for yourself. I love this album, absolutely top shelf.
    Agreed. The sound is amazing and the arrangements are fresh and nuanced . I bought the FLAK download

  12. #12
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    And given my choice I'd go for new KC material every time
    Ian

    Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
    https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/

    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
    There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.

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    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Henry

    you're a brave man!
    FLASH: Bondegezou rags on King Crimson! Details at 11.

    In other news, bear shits in woods, Pope reported to be Catholic, Generalissimo Francisco Franco still dead.

  14. #14
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    Short version of the review: It's crap. I saw the show for two nights in the Egg, in Albany, N.Y. It was intense, there was an urgency, and powerful and dynamic. Lots of moments of beauty. Now if Yes put out a live album that would be a brilliant review.

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    While I *like* what the new Crimson is doing I'm sympathetic to Henry's perspective. I mean I *liked* the 21CSB too...

    Try this experiment. Listen to live at Toronto. Then listen to a live show by the 2003 KC, maybe the Milan or New Haven KCCC releases. All contain very well played, high quality music. But the 2003 band was still really pushing the envelope with new music. It didn't always work, but when it did: Level 5, Thrush, Elektric, the results were, well, electrifying... (nb: I know many of these titles were renamed...)

    And I'll be honest I don't hear a similar level of bona fide innovation and inspiration in the new band. Not that I blame them for a few "nostalgia" tours. They have earned it.

  16. #16
    Still alive and well...

  17. #17
    Tough crowd. This new permutation has Mel Collins, and that's all I need to dig it. The amount of logistics to get these 7 together, most of whom are working musicians anyway, for rehearsals and tours is no small feat. And then you want 2 hours of new music? I'm sure any member could bring new material if they have it. This band seems no different than any other lineup that pushed some boundaries, they're just relying more on the repertoire than others. It didn't seem that nostalgic to me live and up close. If you saw the 1981 band, or the 1994 band, or the 2003 band, who would've guessed we'd be hearing Lark's Tongues Part 1, Pictures Of A City or Sailor's Tale, among others ever? It always seemed a non-starter to even consider.

    Having said all that, I'll welcome more new music. Meltdown does a good job of tying a number of different Crimson generations together. The ending gives the interlocking guitars, with some glockenspiel sounds reminiscent of Jamie Muir, and Mel Collins on top of all that. I hope we'll hear more.

  18. #18
    I'm sorry but a nostalgia band to me is a band like Journey. Going out year after year, trotting out the same old tired hits. Not a band playing music that has either never been played live or if so, not in decades. You may not like the lineup or the song selection, but they are hardly out there milking the cash cow by helping fans relive their younger years. Leave that to the classic rock dinosaurs of which there are plenty. I can't see how there is any comparison.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    I'm sorry but a nostalgia band to me is a band like Journey. Going out year after year, trotting out the same old tired hits. Not a band playing music that has either never been played live or if so, not in decades. You may not like the lineup or the song selection, but they are hardly out there milking the cash cow by helping fans relive their younger years. Leave that to the classic rock dinosaurs of which there are plenty. I can't see how there is any comparison.
    Thank you. I was personally ecstatic to hear these jems that have not been performed live in 40 plus years!
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickleback View Post
    Thank you. I was personally ecstatic to hear these jems that have not been performed live in 40 plus years!
    Me too. It's what we all wanted for many years and it's very very good.
    Still alive and well...

  21. #21
    Member Haruspex Carnage's Avatar
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    My impressions are basically i *DON'T* want to hear ANY renditions of older material...just forge forward...the majority are NEW-ish in this band in a 2000 sense (Collins, Jakko, Rieflin, and Harrison), so focus on what THEY can contribute.

    RF'll be 70 this year...TOPS i can see him continuing to do this for another 5 years and that's being generous...at large i fear he's/they've (?) run out of ideas judging by RATUTHOMM II (slow down the tempo add or subtract a beat or two)...
    Last edited by Haruspex Carnage; 03-30-2016 at 02:00 AM.

  22. #22
    I see what you mean, but not having seen the original KC of the 70s, it was exhilarating to hear and see these songs performed live at the Orpheum Theater. Especially with Mel Collins in tow...
    Last edited by Stickleback; 03-30-2016 at 02:41 AM.
    "Young man says you are what you eat, eat well."
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  23. #23
    Mod or rocker? Mocker. Frumious B's Avatar
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    We're fast coming up on three years since Fripp announced Crimson was returning and I haven't heard anything that convinces me that this is something more than the least essential version of the band ever assembled. IMHO Fripp screwed up by kicking Belew to the curb.
    "It was a cruel song, but fair."-Roger Waters

  24. #24
    Member Jay.Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bondegezou View Post
    The latest incarnation of King Crimson has abandoned the band's usual approach and gone for the nostalgia market that dominates the prog rock scene [...] Some Crim fans have argued that it's not nostalgia because of magic reasons to do with Crimson being different.
    There is a notable difference between a honourable retreat (KC, VdGG) and an ignominious defeat (we all know the names), isn't it?

  25. #25
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    Playing old music is fine, as long as the music is good. This music is good, so this is fine.

    I dunno, I like it, its a worthy addition to the KC oeuvre, and I'd rather have it than not have it. Fripp on.

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