John Tout.....where does his legacy rate?

[Bigpicturekeys]

Did a workout at the health club today and listened to Renaissance "A Song For All Seasons" and Prologue CDs. John Tout's playing is simply masterful. Not only on these 2 cds but on all their output up to A Song For All Seasons. I began to wonder just why he was never considered in the same breath as say Tony Banks, Keith Emerson, Rick Wakeman or even Kerry Minear. I assume it may be related to their music being potentially thought of as lighter fare than the group the others were in. Or maybe I'm in the minority to hold him in such high esteem.

[ProgMusician]

I hold him in very high esteem. It was definitely a blow to me when he passed away. I think there are two reasons for this. First,... he wasn't a synth pioneer and most of the synth playing he did was to cop orchestral instruments (using the Arp Pro-Soloist and String Ensemble for the most part). The guys that were pioneering wild synth sounds developed reputations and got noticed. Secondly,... his approach to his main instrument (piano), while *very* sophisticated and well thought out... was also very "polite" for the most part. This characterization is true for the whole band actually (save for maybe Jon Camp). I love this myself,... but it's not the stuff of rock legends. It's a thoughtful approach, and is supposed to speak for itself. Not surprising that when Renaissance was trying to become a "synth" based band, that is when Tout took his leave (also contributing to this exit was the unexpected death of his sister).

A sometimes overlooked factoid is that in his younger years he played on a couple of songs on John Lennon's Imagine album.

[Ken Baird]

I hold him in very high esteem. It was definitely a blow to me when he passed away. I think there are two reasons for this. First,... he wasn't a synth pioneer and most of the synth playing he did was to cop orchestral instruments (using the Arp Pro-Soloist and String Ensemble for the most part). The guys that were pioneering wild synth sounds developed reputations and got noticed. Secondly,... his approach to his main instrument (piano), while *very* sophisticated and well thought out... was also very "polite" for the most part. This characterization is true for the whole band actually (save for maybe Jon Camp). I love this myself,... but it's not the stuff of rock legends. It's a thoughtful approach, and is supposed to speak for itself. Not surprising that when Renaissance was trying to become a "synth" based band, that is when Tout took his leave (also contributing to this exit was the unexpected death of his sister).

A sometimes overlooked factoid is that in his younger years he played on a couple of songs on John Lennon's Imagine album.

I agree with this reasoning. I also love John's playing, and oddly enough find Azure D'or to be the album I reach for more often than the others in the last few years, so I like him as a "synth guy" too. I also like that Dunford played more electric guitar on that album. Agree that Jon Camp was more "rockin'" than the others

[Rarebird]

I agree with the idea John Tout was mainly a piano-player, while other keyboard-players also played organ and later added synthesizers and Mellotron to their set-up. John Tout added synthesizers mainly for orchestral arrangements. On Azure D'or he used the polyphonic Yamaha CS80, which of course was well suited for that. Renaissance is one of those prog bands I loved when I still was in school.

[Steve983]

Renaissance were unique, for those of us who love their music JT is hugely important. He is often overlooked though because the band didn't rise to the same Prog God status as Yes/Genesis/ELP/Floyd etc.

[Rarebird]

Renaissance were unique, for those of us who love their music JT is hugely important. He is often overlooked though because the band didn't rise to the same Prog God status as Yes/Genesis/ELP/Floyd etc.

For me they are. A schoolmate of mine was also a big fan.

[HarmonyMan]

Renaissance were unique, for those of us who love their music JT is hugely important. He is often overlooked though because the band didn't rise to the same Prog God status as Yes/Genesis/ELP/Floyd etc.

Precisely not because of that, as Tout's approach was mostly classical, obviously not the case of Emerson and Wakeman approaches, who offered a bit more rich pallette. But I agree with you that his band were unique, back in their heydays nothing to lose to the Big 6 in terms of originality and musicality, and much of it thanks to Tout's greatness on the Piano, IMO.

[StevegSr]

John Tout, wow, where to start? First off, his piano playing style was both complex, delicate and regal all at the same time. He is my favorite Prog pianist but not my favorite Prog keyboard player which I consider, like many, to be of multiple keyboard instruments such as the mellotron and synths, etc.

I had a chance to briefly talk with John Tout in 1978 when the band were in the states to perform Northern Lights and Day Of the Dreamer from ASFAS on the Mike Douglas show. He was immediately approachable and I was able to ask him about his more prominent use of synths (Yamaha's) and what moved him to branch out. He laughed and said it was partly pushed on him, but he was fascinated with them as the technology seemed so completely alien to him, even after playing different variants of synths for a good 5-6 years. He was a lovely man and a true survivor of the mixed up world of rock that devolved in the late seventies and early eighties.

I never had a chance to speak with him after he left Renaissance, but I have the feeling that he wasn't missing much as the band and Prog had changed far too much at that time. I don't know that for sure, but it makes me feel better to think that. Another Prog hero of mine that has passed away, sadly.

[wilcox660]

A wonderful approach to melody and arrangement. Sensitive player full of rich textures. Timeless. Spiritual. In a corny moment I'll even say healing. No one like him before or since.

[dr wu23]

Always liked Renaissance but never really thought about Tout's playing all that much.....just took it for granted...my mistake.
Just picked up used vinyl copies of Novella, Song For All Seasons, and Carnegie Live.....had them on cd but these are nice copies and the artwork itself is worth it imho.

[StevegSr]

In a corny moment I'll even say healing. No one like him before or since.

There's nothing corny in your opinion my friend. It's was healing to me. (Ok, now I'm corny! LOL)

[ProgArtist]

A wonderful approach to melody and arrangement. Sensitive player full of rich textures. Timeless. Spiritual. In a corny moment I'll even say healing. No one like him before or since.

Very well said.

I've been on ProgEars since 1999 with varying degrees of activity and have read opinions of all sorts and learned about a lot of music. Out of all my time here the thing that has surprised me the very most is how under-esteemed albums such as Scheherazade and Novella are in the community. IMHO these are first tier albums and about as good as it gets, musically, topped only by a few albums such as Relayer, CttE, and a few others. Now I know we all have our varying opinions, I'm just bit surprised is all.

I say the above to lead to my opinion that John Tout SHOULD be higher esteemed than he is around here as he was the main lead instrument in the group, with Camp probably being the second! That said, I can understand why he doesn't receive the accolades that Emerson, Wakeman, Banks, Minnear and others receive, as Emerson, Banks and Minnear especially were a huge part of the CREATIVE aspect of their respective bands. Emerson and Wakeman were eccentric showmen while Tout blended more into the overall sound of the group.

[HarmonyMan]

A wonderful approach to melody and arrangement. Sensitive player full of rich textures. Timeless. Spiritual. In a corny moment I'll even say healing. No one like him before or since.

Hell yeah man! Enlightening observations about this great musician, and a mistake of mine not to mention his timeless approach to brilliant melodies and rich arrangements, be them on long compositions or short cuts, many of them real gems indeed, to say the least.

.

[WJK59]

Tout was a pretty humble guy, and extremely modest about his talents. I think I recall in an old Keyboard Nagazine interview that he didn't consider himself anywhere near in the same league as some of his better-known contemporaries.

[progfan915]

I'm on a Renaissance kick lately. I have had Carnegie hall and Scheherazade for a while now, but I just expanded my collection with Prologue, Ashes are Burning, Turn of the Cards, and Novella. All are fantastic, and I must say that John Tout's piano is my favourite part of the music.

Is it worth picking up Song for all Seasons and/or Azure D'Or? I understand these are the last albums with John?

[jgprogbear]

While radically different in approach, both albums are essential Renaissance. Song likely has more of what your looking for. Azure was quite heavy on the synths, but gives you another estimation of the huge talent that was Mr. Tout.

[ProgArtist]

Is it worth picking up Song for all Seasons and/or Azure D'Or? I understand these are the last albums with John?

A Song For All Seasons is ESSENTIAL. The opening and closing four tracks are a half hour of some of the best music that Renaissance ever put out, especially if you like the big, orchestral pieces of Turn of a Card through Novella. The remaining 15 minutes in the center range from good to horrible, specifically a schmaltzy song called "She is Love" with Camp on vocals, but the aforementioned 30 minutes of amazing music make the purchase more than worth it, IMO. This was one of Tout's favorite Renaissance releases, by the way.

Azure D'Or is where they ditched the orchestra and made a switch to shorter songs, with varying results. I find 3/4 of it good to great, so I would go for it.

[Jacob Holm-Lupo]

Although I would also tip my hat to the other John - Hawken, whose playing on the first two Renaissance albums and the two Illusion albums I think is equally tasteful and elegant. And he also had a great sense of sound and texture. Of course he came to greater prog prominence with the Strawbs.

[chescorph]

Underrated much like Jon Camp, who is almost forgotten but played like Squire, Lee and Lake (and possibly better than a few of them!).

[ProgMusician]

The remaining 15 minutes in the center range from good to horrible, specifically a schmaltzy song called "She is Love" with Camp on vocals

This song might be my favorite piano performance by John Tout. The vocal really doesn't bother me anyway.... but if you can tune it out you will hear an amazing piece of music going on there. Song for All Seasons is my favorite Renaissance album. I love the production very much. Another David Hentschel home run in my opinion (what a charmed existence Mr. Hentschel seems to have had artistically speaking!).

[bill g]

I'm on a Renaissance kick lately. I have had Carnegie hall and Scheherazade for a while now, but I just expanded my collection with Prologue, Ashes are Burning, Turn of the Cards, and Novella. All are fantastic, and I must say that John Tout's piano is my favourite part of the music.

Is it worth picking up Song for all Seasons and/or Azure D'Or? I understand these are the last albums with John?

These are great. Azure D'Or is a little different, but just as good in my opinion. A more summery sounding album, and though the songs are shorter, 'Forever Changing', 'The Flood At Lyons', and the instrumental 'The Discovery' are classics. There's one so-so track called 'Only Angels Have Wings', I think, but the other 9 songs are really good. 'A Song For All Seasons' is one of their finest, possibly my favorite, depending on the day of course.

As to John Tout, his playing his pretty impeccable and Renaissance wouldn't have been the same without him. An underrated player, I think the fact that he's not as much of a composer, is why he's not always held up there with Banks, Emerson, Minnear and Dave Stewart, all great composers. John Tout, on the other hand, wrote the lovely 'Fugue' piece in 'Song of Scheherazade', but then only cowrote a couple other things like 'A Trip To The Fair' and 'The Sisters', and of course there was a couple group-written things, but almost all their music was written by Michael, and then Jon Camp started writing stuff toward the end.

[regenerativemusic]

I would rate him in the top 5 of progressive rock keyboardists, no problem.

[ProgArtist]

This song might be my favorite piano performance by John Tout. The vocal really doesn't bother me anyway.... but if you can tune it out you will hear an amazing piece of music going on there. Song for All Seasons is my favorite Renaissance album. I love the production very much. Another David Hentschel home run in my opinion (what a charmed existence Mr. Hentschel seems to have had artistically speaking!).

Hmmm, well, it's always nice to hear a varying opinion in order to get me to listen to things in a different way. I'll listen to "She Is Love" with new ears today. The orchestration seems, as I said, "schmaltzy" to me, so I wasn't surprised to learn that the orchestral arrangement was attributed to someone other than the person who arranged the orchestra on the rest of the album. That said, if Annie had sung the lead on that one I'm sure I would skip it less or not at all. Jon's voice just doesn't have the power to carry a song of that nature. That said, I'm not bothered by his vocals on Kiev or Scheherazade, etc. Anyway, I'll give it another listen and report back!

Update after checking Wikipedia: ""She Is Love," sung by Jon Camp, was meant to be sung by Annie Haslam, but the orchestral backing track turned out to have been recorded in the wrong key for her.[5]"

Strange, given that she has such a range. I'm sure she could have pulled it off just fine.

[ProgArtist]

I followed the source for that quote above:

RF: And of course later on in Renaissance, on Song for All Seasons and Azure D’or, you sang on two songs .

JC: There’s one song that I can’t play [ie: listen to] because... you know the song on Song for All Seasons called She is Love? Well, we recorded the orchestra, we got everything, it was wonderful. It came up for Annie to do it and she just couldn’t do the vocal. Somehow or another, something had gone wrong and it was in completely the wrong key! So I walked in and I strained and strained.. I hate that song! Because there’s so many effects on it—it’s completely out of my range! Poor Annie: she went in there and tried and tried . It just didn’t work. We already got it in the can, so I was the sacrificial lamb. (laughs).

[ProgArtist]

And about songwriting credits:

RF: You are obviously a songwriter: you contributed songs to Renaissance, you are doing a solo album now. During the Renaissance years, your songwriting didn’t appear on the albums until Scheherazade, and really not full bore until Song for All Seasons and Azure D’or. Why was that?

JC: Do you want the truth? (laughs) I was writing for Renaissance for a long, long, long while before that. But I was just putting it into the band and was completely naïve and unfortunately other people took the credit for it. The beginning of Can You Understand: probably our greatest opening instrumental piece—writers Camp and Tout! I wrote most of the instrumental sections in Mother Russia. I was putting everything into the band, John [Tout] wrote a tremendous amount that he never got credited for. But I had been writing for a long, long while before that.