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Thread: Do the Grammys Have a Rap Problem?

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark Elf View Post
    Actually, no, it's much more difficult to write a 24 minute prog rock epic and have it sell (or a 44 minute epic like Thick as a Brick that went to #1, for that matter)
    This is a total red herring. If Adele/Taylor Swift/Lady Gaga was to release a 24-minute song on one of their albums which was larded up with extra musicians and contained instrumental solos and time changes, it would go to No. 1 simply by virtue of who released it. And it could be the most god-awful thing ever made (not to suggest that their music in general is god-awful; I'm just using as an example the biggest sellers in popular music today to make a point about popularity and commercial success).

    Bands who do this sort of thing for a living? Not so fashionable these days. So, *nobody* doing that on the regular has any chance to have a hit album. Epic length songs being made by progressive rock bands had a brief sliver of commercial viability and then that time passed (a very long time ago). But even then, commercial success had a TON to do with being on a major label and the quality of your promotion. In other words, the success of those products in the marketplace had quite a bit to do with the quality of marketing and distribution - totally non-artistic factors.

    I've heard many "progressive" musicians opine about how difficult it is to write a good 3.5 minute pop song, so I'll defer to them. It may very well be harder to do that.

    But if "how hard is it" is the main factor for you, I'd suggest selling off your progressive rock albums and focusing almost exclusively on classical music, as that arena is substantially more difficult than progressive rock "epics."

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    You'd want to go with Ten from 2004, which has their most challenging and powerful material. Of course, partly as with Dälek, cLOUDDEAD were never really accepted into any of the established hiphop communities, being a bunch of art-school foistered jewish dudes charging at rap as an external medium of expression. They were probably as estranged to 'mainstream' hiphop as Henry Cow were to 70s 'prog-rock' - with Dälek their Magma counterpart at that...
    I really like that analogy Truthfully, no rap group has quite hit me like Dälek did; unlike Magma which took a few years to really "gel" for me, Dälak got me jazzed almost immediately. I mean, I hear prog or even metal bands claim to be heavy/dark, and they sound like Teletubbies compared to stuff like 'Filthy Tongues.'

    I have the Kendrick Lamar as well, and I can hear the artistry but...I guess I just like that dark & dirty shiat ;-)
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  3. #103
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    I've heard many "progressive" musicians opine about how difficult it is to write a good 3.5 minute pop song, so I'll defer to them.
    +1

    Granted, many successful pop songs have been written in less than five minutes but this isnt often the case..............

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    This is a total red herring. If Adele/Taylor Swift/Lady Gaga was to release a 24-minute song on one of their albums which was larded up with extra musicians and contained instrumental solos and time changes, it would go to No. 1 simply by virtue of who released it. And it could be the most god-awful thing ever made (not to suggest that their music in general is god-awful; I'm just using as an example the biggest sellers in popular music today to make a point about popularity and commercial success).

    Bands who do this sort of thing for a living? Not so fashionable these days. So, *nobody* doing that on the regular has any chance to have a hit album. Epic length songs being made by progressive rock bands had a brief sliver of commercial viability and then that time passed (a very long time ago). But even then, commercial success had a TON to do with being on a major label and the quality of your promotion. In other words, the success of those products in the marketplace had quite a bit to do with the quality of marketing and distribution - totally non-artistic factors.

    I've heard many "progressive" musicians opine about how difficult it is to write a good 3.5 minute pop song, so I'll defer to them. It may very well be harder to do that.

    But if "how hard is it" is the main factor for you, I'd suggest selling off your progressive rock albums and focusing almost exclusively on classical music, as that arena is substantially more difficult than progressive rock "epics."
    At different times along the years, I've played in various ensembles less due to my versatility than the fact that I was cheap (a whore is a whore, let's keep it realz in the rap thread ). Among them was writing backing music for a budding hip hop artist. It was hard as hell trying to understand/explore what they were looking for; just because I had the tech to make it happen didn't mean I knew the first thing about how to realize what was needed. I remember sitting in on an extended session with a couple of my friends as they put together a rap tune using an old primitive Roland sampler. It took hours, and they were paying every bit as much attention to detail as any "serious" musician I could think of. It was their craft and damned straight, they took it seriously.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post

    I've heard many "progressive" musicians opine about how difficult it is to write a good 3.5 minute pop song, so I'll defer to them. It may very well be harder to do that.
    It's also a question of how much practice they'd had, I would say. And a big part of making a good 3:30 pop song is being able to work creatively and wholeheartedly within the limitations of the form. If you're used to using almost any chord, almost any key change, almost any harmonic texture up to full-on atonality, almost any rhythmic intricacy, melodies that need not be easily singable and instantly catchy, and taking as much time as you need to work out what you're saying, it must be really hard. It took Genesis several albums after Wind and Wuthering to become a successful pop band, and they were already just about the best straight-up songwriters of the Big Five.

  6. #106
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    It's also a question of how much practice they'd had, I would say. And a big part of making a good 3:30 pop song is being able to work creatively and wholeheartedly within the limitations of the form. If you're used to using almost any chord, almost any key change, almost any harmonic texture up to full-on atonality, almost any rhythmic intricacy, melodies that need not be easily singable and instantly catchy, and taking as much time as you need to work out what you're saying, it must be really hard. It took Genesis several albums after Wind and Wuthering to become a successful pop band, and they were already just about the best straight-up songwriters of the Big Five.
    The thing is there is no amount of musical theory anyone can learn to write a hook...There are literally all kinds of variations of diatonically perfect melodies (or even "accidental" imperfect ones), harmonies, and counterpoint that can be written based on our 12-tone Western scale. Hell, somebody can employ The Golden Ratio to their pop compositions if they so choose, but there is still no way to judge what would be a public viral earworm for the masses and what won't. Some writer's just have a "gift" for writing those and they use -- not only inherent melodics -- the understanding of trends and what their target demographic approves of. If thats a "formula", so be it: its not a simple one.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    Some writer's just have a "gift" for writing those and they use -- not only inherent melodics -- the understanding of trends and what their target demographic approves of. If that's a "formula", so be it: it's not a simple one.
    Although the current Swedish pop business seems to have gotten that almost down to a science. Much of it seems to involve working by committee; although some of that may be a matter of crediting "producers" whose contributions are of a sort that weren't formerly credited - imagine what the credits for a Sixties LA record would look like if every member of the Wrecking Crew got "producer" credit. There's also the relatively recent phenomenon of "top-liners" - typically girls just out of inner-city high-schools who can write hooks as addictive as playground chants, because not so long ago they were yelling out chants on the playground.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    Although the current Swedish pop business seems to have gotten that almost down to a science. Much of it seems to involve working by committee; although some of that may be a matter of crediting "producers" whose contributions are of a sort that weren't formerly credited - imagine what the credits for a Sixties LA record would look like if every member of the Wrecking Crew got "producer" credit.
    They should've gotten arranger credits at the very least. Same with The Funk Brothers and the Muscle Shoals guys. As it is, they didn't get any credits.

  9. #109
    Member Staun's Avatar
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    I don't understand any of this thread. I'm not cool. Could someone here please make me cool?
    The older I get, the better I was.

  10. #110
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Staun View Post
    I don't understand any of this thread. I'm not cool. Could someone here please make me cool?

  11. #111
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    Although the current Swedish pop business seems to have gotten that almost down to a science. Much of it seems to involve working by committee; although some of that may be a matter of crediting "producers" whose contributions are of a sort that weren't formerly credited - imagine what the credits for a Sixties LA record would look like if every member of the Wrecking Crew got "producer" credit. There's also the relatively recent phenomenon of "top-liners" - typically girls just out of inner-city high-schools who can write hooks as addictive as playground chants, because not so long ago they were yelling out chants on the playground.
    All the names on writers and producers credits are just names on there for the money and many of these folks have nothing to do with the actual recording and songwriting process

    I dont know why many folks are constantly targetting new pop music about this: the USA Country Music industry has been doing this for decades

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    All the names on writers and producers credits are just names on there for the money and many of these folks have nothing to do with the actual recording and songwriting process

    I dont know why many folks are constantly targetting new pop music about this: the USA Country Music industry has been doing this for decades
    Kinda like how Giorgio Gomelsky managed to get his name in the bylines on some of The Yardbirds stuff, so that he could get a bigger cut of the royalties than the 10% usually allotted to the manager. See also Elvis' name appearing in the bylines in a few of his songs, when it's been said that Elvis never wrote a single song in his life. But by putting his name in the byline, Tom Parker made more money (and as we all know, the only thing Parker gave a damn about his paycheck).

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Staun View Post
    I don't understand any of this thread. I'm not cool. Could someone here please make me cool?
    Take it from someone who didn't even have to deal dope or shoot out'n'dahood:

    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  14. #114
    Welp....cLOUDDEAD 10 is en route, along with the latest Noveller.

    And meanwhile...in rather happy news for at least me and the Scissor: new Dalek platter is forthcoming!

    https://deadverse.com/2016/02/dalek-...-on-new-album/

    I will definitely miss Oktopus's input, but based on the samples thus far the new guys should be more than able to step up.
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  15. #115
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    See also Elvis' name appearing in the bylines in a few of his songs, when it's been said that Elvis never wrote a single song in his life. But by putting his name in the byline, Tom Parker made more money (and as we all know, the only thing Parker gave a damn about his paycheck).
    Elvis didn't "write," per se, but he did play a major role in the arrangements. He didn't just show up at the studio to sing.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  16. #116
    Member Staun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    Take it from someone who didn't even have to deal dope or shoot out'n'dahood:

    . Thanks guys for making me cool. Now what do I do?.
    The older I get, the better I was.

  17. #117
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    Yes, they do.











    Oh, "rap". I thought you said something else.

  18. #118
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    The only rapper I like is a guy who calls himself Bankroll Fresh. He's excellent, and sure to make his mark.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    The only rapper I like is a guy who calls himself Bankroll Fresh. He's excellent, and sure to make his mark.
    Sounds like something in a men's lavatory on Wall St.

  20. #120
    Member zravkapt's Avatar
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    That's the guy who got shot to death the other day, I think.
    The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Staun View Post
    I don't understand any of this thread. I'm not cool. Could someone here please make me cool?
    i'll help you... Listen to marvin.... he's gone now but he will make you cool.
    Still alive and well...

  22. #122
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zravkapt View Post
    That's the guy who got shot to death the other day, I think.
    What?

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by wideopenears View Post
    Kendrick Lamar's album is, IMO, one of the best releases of the last few years, in any genre. But I'm sure many of you can't stand it.
    Oh, without the slightest doubt. It's brilliant.

  24. #124
    Member Vic2012's Avatar
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    I'm hearing Trixk Daddy right now. Not by choice. I wanna kill myself. God I hate this shit.

  25. #125
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Somehow I thought the Grammys were last weekend.

    Anyway, I’d like to officially say “who the F is Childish Gambino?” Never heard him. Is that his real name?

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