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Thread: Early Holdsworth Sideman Work

  1. #1
    Member No Pride's Avatar
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    Early Holdsworth Sideman Work

    On another thread here, I admitted that I heard Soft Machine's "Bundles" for the first time last week. Some of my PE buddies were shocked, knowing that I'm a Holdsworth fanboy. In my defense, I've never been the completist type; my list of albums I've never heard would be full of surprises to many members here. The very first time I heard "Holdsy" was on Tony Williams' Lifetime's "Believe It" and the only earlier album I've heard that he was on is Tempest, which I got several years ago and only listened to once... until yesterday. That one still strikes me as an odd album as far as the material goes and Allan doesn't get to stretch out much on it (though when he does take a solo, it's worth the wait). But he's all over "Bundles" and that's a fascinating listen, at least for me.

    I think it has helped me to understand why there's a faction of folks here who like/love his early work as a sideman more than his own solo work; to put it as simply as possible, there was more ROCK in his playing. He bent notes (with his fingers, as opposed to whammy bar "swoops") and actually played some pentatonic blues/rock licks. And though he was still technically amazing early on, there was a certain appealing rawness to his playing. By the time he played with Tony Williams (about a year later, I think), he had already weeded some of those things out of his style. I believe he continued to evolve, but sometimes when a great player keeps moving forward, certain favorable things get lost. John Coltrane (Holdsy's idol) is a perfect example of that; he completely reinvented his style... and though I love much of what he evolved into, I missed some of the aspects of his playing he eschewed in the process.

    Anyway, though I'll always prefer Holdsworth's solo albums to most of his work as a sideman (probably because I generally listen to more jazz than rock), I'm really enjoying his early work with Soft Machine too. He was a fantastic player then (as he still is), but like Coltrane, his style changed so much over the years that it's almost like listening to another (great) player!

    What else have I missed from pre-'74 Holdsworth? Recommendations are most welcome!

  2. #2
    Member Boceephus's Avatar
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    Hey Ernie, I'm a Holdsy fanboy too!
    Gong's Gazuese & the Jean-Luc Ponty albums are the only other "essential" early AH projects, but I think you've heard those.
    Discography:
    Other Official Releases Allan Appears on

    Gordon Beck
    The Things You See 1980 Disques
    With A Heart In My Song 1988 Disques

    Jack Bruce
    A Question Of Time 1989 Epic

    Bill Bruford
    Feels Good To Me 1977 Editions
    One Of A Kind 1979 Polydor
    Hell's Bell's 1980 EG
    Master Strokes 1986 EG

    Stanley Clarke
    If This Bass Could Only Talk 1988 CBS/Port
    The Collection 1990 Castle

    Come Together
    Guitar Tribute To The Beatles 1993 NYC

    Cymbiosis Magazine
    Volume 1 #1 1986 Cymbiosis
    Volume 2 #2 1988 Cymbiosis

    Enigma Variations
    Enigma Variations 1985 Enigma
    Volume 2 1987 Enigma

    Frank Gambale
    Truth In Shredding 1990 Legato

    Pierre Moerlen's Gong
    Gazeuse 1976 Virgin
    Expresso 1977 Virgin
    Expresso 2 1978 Arista
    Time Is The Key 1979 Arista
    Wingful Of Eyes 1986 Virgin

    Gongzilla
    Suffer 1995 Lolo

    Guitar On The Edge
    Volume 1 1992 Guitar on the Edge
    Volume 2 1992 Guitar on the Edge

    Gorky Park
    Stare 1996 MIR

    Guitar's Practicing Musicians
    Play That Funky Music 1989 Guitar

    Stuart Hamm
    Radio Free Albemuth 1988 Relativity

    Steve Hunt
    From Your Heart And Your Soul 1997 Spice Rack

    Jon St. James
    Trans-Atlantic 1984 EMI America
    Fast Impressions 1986 Enigma

    Anders Johansson & Jens Johanson
    Heavy Machinery 1996 Heptagon

    Krokus
    Change Of Address 1986 Arista

    Level 42
    Guaranteed 1991 RCA

    Andrea Marcelli
    Silent Will 1990 Verve/Forecast
    Oneness 1992 Verve/Forecast

    Alex Masi
    Attack Of The Neon Shark 1989 Enigma/Metal Blade

    Esther Phillips
    Capricorn Princess

    Jean-Luc Ponty
    Enigmatic Ocean 1977 Atlantic
    Individual Choice 1983 Atlantic
    Le Voyage - The Jean-Luc Ponty Anthology 1996 Rhino
    The Very Best Of Jean-Luc Ponty 2000 Rhino

    Soft Machine
    Bundles 1975 EMI
    Triple Echo 1977 Harvest/EMI
    Land Of Cockayne 1981 EMI
    The Untouchable 1990 Castle
    Best Of The Harvest Years See For Miles

    Soft Works
    Abracadabra 2003 Universal

    Soma
    Soma 1986 Occidental

    Strange Advance
    The Distance Between 1988 EMI
    Worlds Away & Back 1991 EMI Music Canada

    Steve Tavaglione
    Blue Tav 1990 Creatchy Japan

    Tempest
    Up and On 1973 Bronze

    U.K.
    U.K. 1978 EG/Polydor
    In The Dead Of Night 1978 Polydor
    Radio Special 1978 Polydor

    Carl Verheyen
    No Borders 1988 Chase Music Group

    Chad Wackerman
    Forty Reasons 1991 CMP
    The View 1993 CMP

    John Wetton
    Kings Road 1987 Editions EG

    Tony Williams
    Believe It! 1975 Columbia
    Snake Oil/Red Alert 1975 Columbia
    Million Dollar Legs 1976 Columbia
    The Best Of Tony Williams 1980 Columbia
    The Collection 1992 Columbia/Legacy

    Various Artists
    Contemporary Jazz Masters 1990 Columbia
    CMPler 2 1992 CMP
    Jazz Fusion Volume 2 1997 Rhino
    Meltdown 1997 Rykodisc
    Asia/U.K. Compilation 1997 Resurgence
    Guitar Zone 1998 Times Square
    Fusion 101 1999

    Snew
    Highway Star 2009 SnewYou.Com



    Gordon Beck Sunbird
    Ian Carr Belladonna
    Gong Live Gazeuse
    Allan Holdsworth Just for the Curious
    Allan Holdsworth Velvet Darkness
    Iggin Bottom Iggin Bottom's Wrench
    Nucleus Direct Hit
    John Stevens Touching On
    John Stevens Re Touch
    Jeff Watson Lone Ranger




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  3. #3
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Before 74 you didnt miss much
    Ian Carr Belladonna is O.K.

    I would say the essential sidemanprojects (Besides T. Williams) are

    Gong: Gazeuse
    Gong: Expresso II
    The 2 with Bruford
    UK

    and they are all after 75

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    Member No Pride's Avatar
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    Oops, I meant to say pre '75.

    Quite an extensive list, Boceephus! I've heard a fair share of it, though there's more that I haven't heard. Allan doing "Play That Funky Music White Boy" with Jeff Watson is quite a shocker, I bet he wishes he hadn't done that! I have heard Iggin Bottom's Wrench, now that I think of it. It's a little too early a stage of his development for me. I used to have "The Things You See" with Gordon Beck, who appeared much later on Holdsworth's "None Too Soon." I always felt that Gordon was okay, but nowhere near Holdsy's league; I just assumed he must be Allan's English drinking buddy. I have "Truth in Shredding" (worst album title ever) with Gambale and it was cool to hear Allan play over Brecker and Shorter tunes. I've got the Wackerman stuff too. I love "40 Reasons;" my only complaint is that Chad seems to be trying to write Holdsworth tunes, but he's not nearly as good at it.

    And thanks, Zeulmate! I've never heard his work with Gong. Or with Ponty. I don't really like Ponty's composing much, but I suppose I should check out Enigmatic Ocean.
    Last edited by No Pride; 12-18-2015 at 12:14 PM.

  5. #5
    Connoisseur of stuff. Obscured's Avatar
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    Wackerman's "Forty Reasons", Gongzilla "Suffer" and "Heavy Machinery" with Johannson's are essential along with the Gong, Bruford, Softs and UK material. "Good Morning, Mr. Coffee" from the "Heavy Machinery" album is must hear/ must have.
    "Henry Cow always wanted to push itself, so sometimes we would write music that we couldn't actually play – I found that very encouraging." - Lindsay Cooper, 1998
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    Oops, I meant to say pre '75.
    Allan doing "Play That Funky Music White Boy" with Jeff Watson is quite a shocker, I bet he wishes he hadn't done that! .
    That would be a winning bet! Allan had a short list of recordings he wished he hadn't participated in, on his website discography.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obscured View Post
    "Heavy Machinery" with Johannson's
    I use to have it. Good playing, lousy writing (imho, of course).

    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    That would be a winning bet! Allan had a short list of recordings he wished he hadn't participated in, on his website discography.
    Of course I've seen it. I think his deepest regret was his first solo album, "Velvet Darkness." Apparently what you hear on that album was what Allan thought was a rehearsal. What's interesting is that George Benson got him signed to the CTI label for that.
    Last edited by No Pride; 12-18-2015 at 12:35 PM.

  8. #8
    Yeah, that was a crappy thing for the label to do. Was Creed Taylor still involved? I thought CTI was on the level.

    Maybe Jeff Watson bought Allan some good beer before the session?

  9. #9
    Traversing The Dream 100423's Avatar
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    Also Gary Husband's Dirty and Beautiful Vol. I & II.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Yeah, that was a crappy thing for the label to do. Was Creed Taylor still involved? I thought CTI was on the level.
    It was Taylor's label, but I don't think he was involved as a producer. Rudy Van Gelder was the engineer. Apparently it was released without Allan's consent and nobody got paid any royalties. He considers it to be an unofficial release.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Maybe Jeff Watson bought Allan some good beer before the session?
    Allan seems to always be hurting for money. He'll probably play on anybody's album if the pay is right. But I don't think he'd ever turn down a good brew either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 100423 View Post
    Also Gary Husband's Dirty and Beautiful Vol. I & II.
    I only have one of those, but oddly, Allan only plays rhythm on it.

  12. #12
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Before 74 you didnt miss much
    Ian Carr Belladonna is O.K.

    I would say the essential sidemanprojects (Besides T. Williams) are

    Gong: Gazeuse
    Gong: Expresso II
    The 2 with Bruford
    UK

    and they are all after 75
    plus the two Tony Williams and JLP Enigmatic Ocean
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    plus the two Tony Williams and JLP Enigmatic Ocean
    The second Tony Williams album was pretty dismal compared to the first.

  14. #14
    Outraged bystander markwoll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    Allan seems to always be hurting for money. He'll probably play on anybody's album if the pay is right. But I don't think he'd ever turn down a good brew either.
    In that completest vein:
    Riptyde - Sonic Undertow(2004) I think it was a favor to a big supporter.
    K2 - Book of the Dead (2005)
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    But he's all over "Bundles" and that's a fascinating listen, at least for me.

    I think it has helped me to understand why there's a faction of folks here who like/love his early work as a sideman more than his own solo work; to put it as simply as possible, there was more ROCK in his playing. He bent notes (with his fingers, as opposed to whammy bar "swoops") and actually played some pentatonic blues/rock licks. And though he was still technically amazing early on, there was a certain appealing rawness to his playing.
    I would also highly recommend the Cuneiform CD/DVD "Switzerland 1974". It has SM playing an almost-all Bundles set, and you actually get to *see* a very young Holdsworth doing his magic. He probably gets 40% of the face time on the DVD.

    I have spent a lot of time over the last few weeks with this set, watching it several times through, and just yesterday I came to largely the same conclusion you did: Holdsy was still a rock player in a lot of ways and didn't develop his Coltrane jazz "burst of colors" thing (I call it that because I always see a lot of color in my head when intensely listening to his solos) until later. What he does works great in the context of SM where there were two great composers (Ratledge and Jenkins), but on his own I definitely prefer his jazzy self.

  16. #16
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Belladonna is much more than just O.K., but it's not a huge Holdsworth showcase by any means.

  17. #17
    Some other early Holdsy can be heard on a couple BBC Radio shows. They can found at www.dimeadozen.org or some other sites. Highly recommended

    Allan Holdsworth & Co. " Jazz In Britain " London, UK January 8, 1980

    Allan Holdsworth - Guitar
    Gordon Beck - Piano
    John O'Whey - Bass
    Ray Warleigh - Alto & Soprano Saxophone
    John Marshall - Drums

    Tracks:

    1. The Things You See When You Haven't Got Your Gun
    2. Every Little Breeze
    3. Sunday

    Allan Holdsworth I.O.U. " Jazz In Britain " London, UK October 20, 1981

    Allan Holdsworth - Guitar
    Paul Carmichael - Bass
    Gary Husband - Drums & Piano

    Tracks:

    1. White Line
    2. Shallow Sea ( Excerpt )
    3. Where Is One ?
    4. Prayer / Drifting Into The Attack
    5. Letters Of Marque

  18. #18
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    http://www.amazon.com/Propensity-Dan...talca0daa06-20

    "Propensity", with John Stevens and Danny Thompson, was an improvised studio set that he did a month or so before getting fired by Jobson & Wetton.
    The first track is on acoustic. I highly recommend it. Holdsworth probably disowns it.

  19. #19
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Another good one that I have of the same vintage (different ) has


    Pat Smythe Quintet (with Allan Holdsworth)
    BBC Broadcast
    London 1980

    Pat Smythe - p
    Ray Warleigh - as, fl
    Allan Holdsworth - g
    Chris laurence - b
    John Marshall - d

    1. Letters of Marque 8.07
    2. Announcer (Peter Clayton) 0.33
    3. Reflection 5.56
    3. Announcer 0.13
    5. Out from Under 6.13
    6. Announcer 0.25.
    7. Steppes 7.02

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Some other early Holdsy can be heard on a couple BBC Radio shows. They can found at www.dimeadozen.org or some other sites. Highly recommended

    Allan Holdsworth & Co. " Jazz In Britain " London, UK January 8, 1980

    Allan Holdsworth - Guitar
    Gordon Beck - Piano
    John O'Whey - Bass
    Ray Warleigh - Alto & Soprano Saxophone
    John Marshall - Drums

    Tracks:

    1. The Things You See When You Haven't Got Your Gun
    2. Every Little Breeze
    3. Sunday

    Allan Holdsworth I.O.U. " Jazz In Britain " London, UK October 20, 1981

    Allan Holdsworth - Guitar
    Paul Carmichael - Bass
    Gary Husband - Drums & Piano

    Tracks:

    1. White Line
    2. Shallow Sea ( Excerpt )
    3. Where Is One ?
    4. Prayer / Drifting Into The Attack
    5. Letters Of Marque

  20. #20
    Member nosebone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    The second Tony Williams album was pretty dismal compared to the first.
    Your right, Million dollar legs was really bad for everybody.
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  21. #21
    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    Belladonna is much more than just O.K., but it's not a huge Holdsworth showcase by any means.
    INDEED

    He also plays on a piece or two from Nucleus - We'll Talk About It Later

    and
    I like the Gordon Beck albums actually. Sunbird is quite nice
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

  22. #22
    Member rapidfirerob's Avatar
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    For me, I like Allan's albums, but don't love them. Many of his compositions don't do a lot for me. Of course, I listen to them for his incredible playing, regardless.
    I first heard him on Believe It as well, a perfect fusion album, for me. Pasqua is great on that album as well, and it's always nice to have someone else playing chords, solos with Allan. I love Ponty's compositions. Enigmatic Ocean is his best album IMO.

  23. #23
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    The second Tony Williams album was pretty dismal compared to the first.
    There is also an earlier album before a million dollar legs. Recorded in stockholm the year before and never released. It had Jack Bruce on bass and the singer from his previous album 'the old bums rush'.
    Allthough it wasnt released officially, you cant find it many places for instance here:


    On the first track there is a good AH solo, and on one of the following tracks he tries to play rhythm with a wah wah pedal

    But if time is short - hear the Gazeuse album instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XcfKHiWEN4

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Reid View Post
    Yeah, that was a crappy thing for the label to do. Was Creed Taylor still involved? I thought CTI was on the level.
    CTI were an assembly line label. My guess is they gave Allan one session like every other jazz guy, and if what they got done wasn't good enough for him so what.

  25. #25
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    Love him on Bundles, Believe It and the first two Bruford albums...bit of a square peg in a round hole in UK, to me.

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