Triumvirat

[Rael]

The first time I heard Spartacus, I literally laughed out loud. To my ears, these guys had their ELP down so pat it was *eerie*. But better than ELP? Don't think so. But I guess I'm not surprised that some here prefer Triumvirat to ELP. It's not as fucked up as liking Starcastle better than Yes, which is just beyond my realm of understanding! And yet, some here really do...

[calyx]

It's not as fucked up as liking Starcastle better than Yes, which is just beyond my realm of understanding! And yet, some here really do...

Believe it or not, a major French rock critic reviewed Starcastle's debut at the time saying exactly that - he felt Yes had lost their way with "Tales" and "Relayer" and reckoned Starcastle's music was exactly what Yes should never have stopped doing, i.e. back to the "Yes Album" / "Fragile" era.

[Levgan]

I still prefer Triumvirat over ELP.

This just boggles the mind, and goes against every component of musical appreciation which I have grown to understand through my years of music listening.

Well, liking or not liking certain music is a matter of emotions, not an objective critical analysis or anything. I can perfectly understand how someone can prefer Triumvirat to ELP. Truth is, we don't know what's behind this preference, and even a person actually expressing it would often struggle to answer that - it may be a sentimental connection, an association with certain period of his/her life, a particular affinity to certain part of the music (say, Helmut Koellen's voice - and not Lake's), etc. In other words, there are lots of different personal reasons that may be at play here! So while logically, this may sound weird for you or me, the beautiful thing about music and our perception of it is that, like every art, it often defies logic.

On the other hand, saying that ELP is objectively inferior to Triumvirat - now that I would indeed have hard time to understand. But nobody or almost nobody does that over here, as far as I could see.

Me, I like "Illusions" a lot, "Spartacus" a bit less, find "Mediterranean Tales" pretty embryonic, "Old Loves Die Hard" very uneven and "Pompeii" extremely dull and annoying. In fact I sorta prefer even "Russian Roulette" to "Pompeii", it's a whole lot different and not particularly impressive, but at least it's okay pop, and I'd always pick that over poor prog.

[Rufus]

Probably the same critic who sed they'd commit suicide if Uriah Heep made it big ...the moral is 'what do critics know ?'

[no.nine]

Listening to Old Loves Die Hard.

Been years since I spun this.

"The History Of Mystery" is utterly hilarious. I wonder if Emerson ever heard this.

I like this album. It's uneven, but there's some fantastic material on here... my favorite tracks are the three-part "A Day in a Life" and the aforementioned "The History of Mystery". You know the line about the front page headline saying "Surprise, nobody killed today"? Well, that actually happened here in NY about a month or so ago! The wording was different but - honest - it was on the front page of the Daily News that there were no murders in the preceding 24 hours. First thing I thought of was that song!

[no.nine]

[...] frankly, is there anything in their music that isn't derivative of ELP in the strictest sense?

Yes, there is. Their 1st album, Mediterranean Tales is derivative of the Nice.

[presdoug]

I started a Triumvirat thread on PE a while ago called Triumvirat and Related Artists that got hardly any response, glad to see this thread, and have enjoyed reading through the comments.
Triumvirat are my favorite band, no, not ELP, not Gentle Giant, not Yes, but Triumvirat. Their first three albums, Tales, Illusions and Spartacus, are for me the last word on great progressive rock, better than everything else out there combined.
They knew how to combine technique, excitement, and sheer joy in their music like no other band, really.
Old Loves, for me, was the start of the decline, though funny, i like Russian Roulette, and A La Carte almost as much as Old Loves or Pompeii itself, even though they sound like a different band by that time.
As someone on youtube stated, when Helmut Koellen left the band, so did their career.
Mr. Koellen, either with Triumvirat, or with the group Jail, or on his later solo record, has become a music hero of mine, especially, and inspires me like no other musician does, really. His early death is one of the greatest tragedies of the prog world.

[A. Scherze]

[A. Scherze]

On the Gibraltar site, in the reviews of Triumvirat, one doofus stated that not only was the music taken from ELP but so were song titles and used as an example, "Lucky Girl". This nimrod failed to notice that the preceding song is called "Roundabout".

[Burble]

I pulled this out for a listen just because of this thread. As a kid, I bought this album because I really liked Spartacus, but I really didn't like this one, even though I tried to - I listened to it a lot. History of Mystery really does have sort of a Mickey Mouse sound to it. It's that totally major-key march vibe that sounds incredibly hokey to me. So much of Fritz's writing on this one sounds like he's really working the Emerson influence, but it ends up sounding like TV music.

As for the Triumvirat-ELP thing, it's obvious that Fritz was borrowing really heavily from Emerson; I liked the way it came out on Spartacus, not so much on OLDH. He runs around with those sus chords really well, which seems to be his central Emerson device, but when he goes outside of that, he's got a much more schmaltzy diatonic thing going on that more reminds me of Wakeman's solo stuff. Listening to something on OLDH like Panic on 5th Avenue, it's like, there's only so much you can do moving a sus chord around; you gotta do something a little more than that harmonically.

But - after all - he's NOT Emerson; even if that is his central influence, he really is doing his own thing. You just have to take it on its own merits.

And, yeah, Cold Old Worried Lady is pretty much the piano riff from Your Song - I think it's even in Eb. Probably I stuck with this album for so long because Emerson and Elton were my favorite guys in 1975 (or whenever).

[Progbear]

On the Gibraltar site, in the reviews of Triumvirat, one doofus stated that not only was the music taken from ELP but so were song titles and used as an example, "Lucky Girl". This nimrod failed to notice that the preceding song is called "Roundabout".

The female backing vocal arrangements are also taken from Yes, compare the “aah!” bits to the ones near the beginning of “Close to the Edge.”

That said, I can kind of understand someone preferring Triumvirat to ELP. Illusions on a Double Dimple sort of distills all that was good about ELP and ditches all the embarrassing crap (the cheesy classical covers, the honky-tonk piano stuff, Greg Lake’s pompous troubadour posturing, etc.). Of course, they kind of shot themselves in the foot later by hiring Barry Palmer with his awful, strangulated voice.

-------------
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

"'Thin Thighs For Your Man.' But I don't *like* men with thin thighs" --Daria

N.P.:“Siege of Paris”-Thy Majestie/Jeanne d’Arc

[no.nine]

On the Gibraltar site, in the reviews of Triumvirat, one doofus stated that not only was the music taken from ELP but so were song titles and used as an example, "Lucky Girl". This nimrod failed to notice that the preceding song is called "Roundabout".

Well, that's because "Roundabout" isn't by ELP. It's by Starcastle.

[A. Scherze]

And, yeah, Cold Old Worried Lady is pretty much the piano riff from Your Song ...

Some of these piano bits are straight out of "Daniel."

So, which is it?

BTW, the Wikipedia entry say that, in Your Song, "(t)he instrumental focus is on John's Leon Russell-influenced piano work ...",
so maybe both Triumvirat and EJ are ripping off Leon Russell (or whomever he ripped off).

But - after all - he's NOT Emerson; even if that is his central influence, he really is doing his own thing. You just have to take it on its own merits.

This, I agree with. I can understand that someone does not like T-rat, but at least have a legitimate reason, not "they suck because they sound too much like another band that is acknowledged as one of the best in their genre".

Triumvirat were good musicians making good music.

[JeffCarney]

So, which is it?

It's "Your Song." I misspoke.

BTW, the Wikipedia entry say that, in Your Song, "(t)he instrumental focus is on John's Leon Russell-influenced piano work ...",
so maybe both Triumvirat and EJ are ripping off Leon Russell (or whomever he ripped off). .

Funny how "defenders" of this practice never actually defend it, but instead try to argue that the person being ripped off was ripping somebody off. Hence, citing the obvious lift is somehow "ironic" or unjustified.

A real stretch, IMO.

Triumvirat were good musicians making good music.

Seems true enough.

[presdoug]

On the Gibraltar site, in the reviews of Triumvirat, one doofus stated that not only was the music taken from ELP but so were song titles and used as an example, "Lucky Girl". This nimrod failed to notice that the preceding song is called "Roundabout".

Believe it or not, i can think of worse. Some dipstick on Amazon.com reviewed a T'rat album, i think it was Spartacus, with one sentence in capital letters repeated over and over "WE WISH WE WERE ELP"-no kidding, this was his "review". Someone left a comment, "Why do you wish you were ELP?" I felt like telling this reviewer, get a brain.

[sonic]

Funny how "defenders" of this practice never actually defend it, but instead try to argue that the person being ripped off was ripping somebody off. Hence, citing the obvious lift is somehow "ironic" or unjustified.

What is more suspect is why someone would start a thread just to shit on a band, which is essentially what you have done. Your tone towards them from the outset in the first post is one of pure condescension. Why even bother starting the thread?

[JAMOOL]

Me too. I pull out Triumvirat a lot more than ELP. Derivative or not they made good records (mostly Spartacus and Illusions, but Pompeii and Old Loves are not bad) and they could play their asses off. People talk about ELP as if they are the kings of originality when in fact ELP's music is mostly ripped off from other composers...and as mentioned he got his tone from Jimmy Smith. It makes it rather ironic that people complain Triumvirat ripped off their sound.

I don't really find it ironic - Emerson definitely did his fair share of copying but his ELP sound is very much unlike anything else (unless I'm missing something?) Triumvariat seems to just copy the entire style, even if their compositions are more original. It's a different kind of rip.

Reading through this thread, I confess that it might be one of the most bizarre I've seen at PE. I would have assumed that Triumvirat fans were mostly huge ELP fans who just couldn't get enough and turned to other outlets for variations on that general sound. Perfectly understandable. And as mentioned, Triumvirat were "smart" enough to really push their ELP-like stuff to the fore when ELP were in "hibernation" in '75 and '76. It's hilarious how well they ripped off ELP. Was that not their point? Were they actually attempting to be taken seriously? I'd genuinely be interesting in any links to interviews with them about this. I would have assumed this was all kind of in "good fun."

This on the other hand I do agree with. I didn't know there were people who really took this band seriously.

[JeffCarney]

What is more suspect is why someone would start a thread just to shit on a band, which is essentially what you have done. Your tone towards them from the outset in the first post is one of pure condescension. Why even bother starting the thread?

I think perhaps you should read my comments more attentively.

I don't "worship" the band, but I certainly find them entertaining and at times quite remarkable. If I sometimes sound "condescending" then consider the source of the music being discussed. This band made the choice to sometimes blatantly copy another's style, and as such they will likely always be associated with commentary that regards them in a far less than "serious" manner.

I actually don't really have a problem with their artistic endeavors, even if I sometimes find them a bit shallow. But the idea that they should be discussed in a similar manner to ... say, Yes or King Crimson is simply deluding oneself, IMO.

[Rarebird]

I don't hear that much simularities between Triumvirat and ELP. I think Triumvirat is less flash and more substance.
I also prefer Trace over ELP, which doesn't mean I don't like ELP.

[Ribo]

Rand said: "Our TV station in Eureka,Ca used to use The History Of Mystery as the bumper to the opening of the local news. The first time I heard it,I knew I owned it. That was around 1978."

What's with CA local news stations and Triumvirat! San Diego local news (forget which one) used a snippet of Eruption from 'Pompeii' as its lead-in around the same time period. Pretty effective, actually.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I quite enjoy Illusions on a Double Dimple, and their debut as well, but I couldn't really continue from there. Yup, Mediterranian Tales - Across the Waters even manages to reproduce Lee Jackson's less-than-desirable gruffvox, and Illusions does the Trilogy-thing "correctly". But the ironic fact is that during its day it was only rock'n'roll!

For an even more Nice'ian German band, check Tetragon. And for even more ELP-wannabe, check Tritonus. However, the German instrumental band called Trilogy did essentially not tread those tracks. Rock history is full of them - the copycats. Good and bad ones. More bad ones, admittedly - and also depending on whom they were channelling and what faccets were highlighted.

[ItalProgRules]

I don't hear that much simularities between Triumvirat and ELP. I think Triumvirat is less flash and more substance.

Agreed, and I feel the same way about Le Orme-ELP comparisons, which is the height of lazy comparisons, IMO. "Oh look, three guys and one of them plays a Hammond, and the bass player sings, must be an ELP clone." Yet Le Orme has 80% less flash and 80% more taste! (but I do love ELP. ELP is a band that you listen to FOR the flash!)

[Rarebird]

For an even more Nice'ian German band, check Tetragon. And for even more ELP-wannabe, check Tritonus. However, the German instrumental band called Trilogy did essentially not tread those tracks. Rock history is full of them - the copycats. Good and bad ones. More bad ones, admittedly - and also depending on whom they were channelling and what faccets were highlighted.

I think I prefer Tetragon over what I've heard of the Nice. What I've heard of Tritonus, I like, alas I can't find their stuff on CD. I don't mind copycats. Some where better than the originals.
And I still prefer groups like Hoelderlin and Novalis over Yes and Genesis.

[Progatron]

Agreed, and I feel the same way about Le Orme-ELP comparisons, which is the height of lazy comparisons, IMO. "Oh look, three guys and one of them plays a Hammond, and the bass player sings, must be an ELP clone."

Yeah, I think calling Le Orme a 'clone' is very far-fetched. They took inspiration, certainly. As did every band at one time or another.

This thread was an interesting read!

[sonic]

And for even more ELP-wannabe, check Tritonus.

I don't hear much wannabe in their sound, far less than Triumvirat. They tend to play at mid tempo for one, rather than breakneck ELP speeds. The influence is there, but these guys are far from copycats.