Is touring the US too expensive?

[bondegezou]

http://louderthanwar.com/are-these-t...uring-america/

This is something Bill Bruford talked a lot about before retiring, how it had become financially unfeasible to bring, for instance, Earthworks to the US (thus the separate US line-up on one of the later live albums).

Henry

[Jerjo]

I've seen this popping up on other forums as well. Reminded me of the NF guys and their issues with visas for bands coming in to the US. I think that unless you're at least at the level of say King Crimson or Ian Anderson's touring group, coming over to the US just isn't feasible anymore.

[GuitarGeek]

Given the fact that most of the time the "US tour" seems to consist of a small handful of dates (which invariably includes at least one festival appearance), I'd imagine that it's true that doing a proper North American tour is just too much for anyone who isn't being subsidized by some evil corporation (ie mainstream major label record company).

On the other hand, you've got people like Nik Turner and STeve Hackett doing pretty extensive Stateside touring, so maybe it's not completely impossible. And Magma played something vaguely resembling a proper North American tour last spring.

I'm not sure how Steve Hackett does it, unless being the former guitarist in a very famous band a long long time ago (in a galaxy far far away) gives him the cache to be able to tour the US and play places like the House Of Blues or the Hard Rock Bullshit-sino in the big cities. Or maybe the fact that he gets booked into the given venue in LA or NYC or wherever, and because it's a chain, the venues in all the other cities (schedules permitting) have to book the show as well, contractually speaking.

I gather that the likes of Magma and Nik Turner probably have fans serving as their promoters in each city, who book the gigs on their own money, eg when Magma played in Chicago, it was one fan who took all the financial risk to make the show happen, etc.

Sometimes even doing just a few shows is too much to deal with. I remember talking to the owner a club in Cleveland about 10 or 12 years ago, who wanted to book Happy The Man (or rather, there was a guy in town who was trying to facilitate a HTM gig at the venue in question), but it didn't happen because they needed another show or two or three lined up to make the trip to Cleveland pan out financially, ie they'd have lost too much money just coming to Cleveland to do the one show. I'm not exactly sure how many dates HTM were looking at doing, but I guess they just couldn't make it work. (shrug)

[3RDegree_Robert]

We (3RDegree) just did the opposite and besides having to pay for "sponsorship" to get into the UK to play the 4 shows we did there (which cost us around $200 for the 4 of us) touring (as we did bringing only a guitar, a bass and 2 keyboards-nothing else) was do-able but of course not "cheap". We checked ahead of time and found that we were cool in France, Germany and The Netherlands without any official papers and hoops to jump through. We kept the loop small, basically a circle from Rotterdam to Frankfurt to Paris to the UK's southern area. When you come to the US, there's lots of red tape and B.S. not to mention doing anything out of the northeast just covers too much area.

[soundchaser93]

I know that even bigger bands like Marillion have had trouble touring America in the past. Apparently, in addition to the prospect being very expensive, there's just an excessive amount of bureaucratic nonsense that has to be done -- and even then you're not guaranteed anything.

[TheH]

I think the main problem is size and distances.

For a European band its quite a fet to tour the US. For example Germany is about the size of Montana.
So if you are used to tour Germany you would not have any idea how to tour the US.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Seeing how music sales have dropped dramatically this past decade (and significally more even just these few recent years), there's no way for instance a European "cult band" would ever afford to tour the states in previous fashion. At best they'd might be invited specifically to play a string of various festivals and perhaps throw in a few club dates in neighbouring states, but "go on tour" - hardly. Magma did this recently; I dunno how many dates they performed, but considering their serious historical credentials as a cult name it was still somewhat morbid to note that they were essentially traveling around in a wornout minibus along the highway. I believe even this took great cost for them.

There are Norwegian acts with international followings (Motorpsycho, Jaga Jazzist, Katzenjammer) who've had to apply for heavy grants from different cultural councils and offices even just to realise simple trips to the Netherlands or Germany.

[flowerking]

Even in the mid to late 80s, touring the US became so cost prohibitive that the big bands were beings sponsored to do it. Remember when Genesis toured Invisible Touch, they were sponsored by Michelob? They made supposedly tens of millions of dollars because Michelob paid for the entire tour and Genesis got to keep every dollar of gate receipt. Like others have commented, we are seeing prog bands playing a few select cities on their US or North American tours because there are few cities where they will sell out and break even. I'd guess no prog band is touring the US to make money, just to get out there and meet with fans who reward them by buying merchandise.

[Kavus Torabi]

As a British musician who spends a good part of his life touring, I can say absolutely that touring the US is nigh on impossible.
I think in terms of Knifeworld, which is an 8-piece band, it is actually impossible.
Admittedly Knifeworld has a 'selective appeal', nonetheless we manage to get around the UK fairly regularly and occasionally Europe without making a loss.

The only way Guapo was able to tour the US in 2005 was due to our NEARfest booking.
NEARfest had a charitable status which meant we all received visa waivers. Our choice was to play NEARfest as a one-off and come back with a small amount of money each or take advantage of the opportunity by doing a tour (illegally)with Zombi.
We all opted for the latter. The gigs were pretty well attended and the tour was massive fun. Pretty much every night we had to sleep on floors but doing it with Zombi who had experience of that circuit meant we kept costs to a minimum and didn't make too many stupid financial mistakes.

I can't see that ever being possible again, realistically, which is a shame.

It's frustrating because every time I post forthcoming tour dates on Facebook with various bands, almost without exception someone(s) posts "Come to the US', like it was something we were deliberately choosing not to do.,

[Scrotum Scissor]

^ Well, I guess that means that larger US audiences are permanently left with their Nickelbacks and Limp Bizkits.

I'm only too happy to be European and Scandinavian, at least as far as the experience and enjoyment of live music is concerned.

[Esoteric]

Kavus has stated the situation very well and to be frank not many bands apart from the very young really want the sleeping on floors stuff either, US visas are also incredibly expensive for a band compared to the other way round and to do it legally you have to prove a certain amount of Knownness!!

[Nearfest2]

So true. Visas to the US are very expensive. And now with the Paris attacks, the visa waiver program is being squeezed which cuts off yet another avenue for foreign bands to play the US.

[jkelman]

I've seen this popping up on other forums as well. Reminded me of the NF guys and their issues with visas for bands coming in to the US. I think that unless you're at least at the level of say King Crimson or Ian Anderson's touring group, coming over to the US just isn't feasible anymore.

Absolutely true. I know plenty of musicians (even big names like John McLaughlin) who've decided to strike North America from potential tour destinations (Canada, too, because more often than not it's rarely worth coming over without at least some US dates).because of visa costs, cost to travel and overall treatment; whereas once they needed us, they no longer do for either a living or recognition.

Sad...but true.

[happytheman]

http://louderthanwar.com/are-these-t...uring-america/

This is something Bill Bruford talked a lot about before retiring, how it had become financially unfeasible to bring, for instance, Earthworks to the US (thus the separate US line-up on one of the later live albums).

Henry

I remember Steve Howe commenting when I saw him many years ago how much easier it was to tour in the states.. Of course what he was referring to was taking the Interstate 95 (which runs down the entire east coast) tour.. vs. running all over Europe.. Mind you it's been a few years since I lived in Germany.. but as I recall there is a nice road system over there.. but I guess I see his point..

[Facelift]

Thought of this thread when I saw the Martin Barre US tour thread.

Martin Barre would seem to be type of person who might be priced out of this, based on the responses to this thread. He has nowhere near the name recognition of Ian Anderson, and the small venues he's been playing would affirm this. Also unlike, say, Steve Hackett, Barre does not have long and/or established history of solo US tours to serve as precedent for economic viability.

[dgtlman]

^ Well, I guess that means that larger US audiences are permanently left with their Nickelbacks and Limp Bizkits.

I'm only too happy to be European and Scandinavian, at least as far as the experience and enjoyment of live music is concerned.

And Rush. Who I have had the pleasure of seeing at least 40 times

[bRETT]

I recall a thread here about Van der Graaf Generator's last US tour that was pretty eye-opening. Aside from the expense of touring, they had to spend a couple of days proving they had artistic significance before they could get visas.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Van der Graaf Generator's last US tour [...] was pretty eye-opening. [...] they had to spend a couple of days proving they had artistic significance before they could get visas.

"You've got zum SERIOUS artistic merit, like? Like, y'know, Nickelback or MC Hammer or the Kelly Family? Huuuuh...?" [Clerk guard leans arrogantly over desk and frowns at dat Hammil dude].

[LASERCD]

I recall a thread here about Van der Graaf Generator's last US tour that was pretty eye-opening. Aside from the expense of touring, they had to spend a couple of days proving they had artistic significance before they could get visas.

Any band trying to come into the country through the front door has to provide proof of their artistic signficance. For many of my bands coming over here to tour or perform at festivals I've had to provide stacks of reviews from print magazines.

[bRETT]

Any band trying to come into the country through the front door has to provide proof of their artistic signficance. For many of my bands coming over here to tour or perform at festivals I've had to provide stacks of reviews from print magazines.

And it's apparently getting tougher. Over the summer King Sunny Ade had to cancel a US tour because his visas didn't come through-- Truly boggles the mind.

[Steve F.]

It's frustrating because every time I post forthcoming tour dates on Facebook with various bands, almost without exception someone(s) posts "Come to the US', like it was something we were deliberately choosing not to do.

SO funny.

SO true

[GuitarGeek]

And it's apparently getting tougher. Over the summer King Sunny Ade had to cancel a US tour because his visas didn't come through-- Truly boggles the mind.

AH, man, that bites! I would have traveled long distances to see Ade!

[Jeremy Bender]

I know that even bigger bands like Marillion have had trouble touring America in the past. Apparently, in addition to the prospect being very expensive, there's just an excessive amount of bureaucratic nonsense that has to be done -- and even then you're not guaranteed anything

I'm fuzzy on the details but I vaguely remember that Marillion's 2007 tour (I went to the two Los Angeles shows and the one at the Fillmore in San Francisco) nearly didn't happen because of visa problems. Even so, they're a good example of a band that has a sustainable pocket of fans in the northeast (Boston, New York, Philadelphia), Chicago, Los Angeles and San Francisco in the US and Quebec in Canada but elsewhere......not so much. Even in the EMI days, I doubt they did many tour stops in Montana or Alabama. Still, I'm glad they seem ready to tour here again in 2016, I would gladly contribute to a tour fund again if it meant they played more shows in more cities.

[NogbadTheBad]

It's frustrating because every time I post forthcoming tour dates on Facebook with various bands, almost without exception someone(s) posts "Come to the US', like it was something we were deliberately choosing not to do.,

I guess I owe you an apology as a guilty party. In my defense if I get the opportunity to see you in Europe somewhere I'll grab it. Most likely via a festival which gives me the best excuse to book a flight.

Hope to see one of your bands sometime in the future.

[JKL2000]

I sometimes wonder about bands that are able to tour here regularly, like Renaissance, but I guess Annie Haslam lives in the US now, doesn't she. And when Marillion used to do a lot of shows here Ian Mosley was living in Florida. I think that's the key. Kavus, move to the US!