Poly rhythm, odd time Math-ness anyone?

[boilk]

There are all kinds of awesome bands out there right now, doing incredible things across all kinds of genres. They utilize a variety of textures and tonalities, in fresh, new exciting ways, as well as many who use very strong melodies in their song writing.

This thread is regarding bands that use polyrhythms and math-rock. Some are in the jazz field, so of course they may just do a solo or two, especially in a live setting. To try and force every form of progressive music back into a 1970s aesthetic, is ludicrous. I am so happy that I live in the now.

neil

[boilk]

Here is an awesome band, doing very inventive things in the progressive metal genre, and they are big proponents of polyrhythms.

[Zeuhlmate]

A Series Of Disagreements

http://artascatharsis.bandcamp.com/a...-disagreements

[sergio]

Panzerballett-Breaking Brain will break your brain... tell em about polyrhythms

[Finch Platte]

Here is an awesome band, doing very inventive things in the progressive metal genre, and they are big proponents of polyrhythms.

Is that a new album? Not too sure about those Cookie Monster vocals. :*/

[boilk]

Is that a new album? Not too sure about those Cookie Monster vocals. :*/

It's their brand new release. Only a smattering of those types of vocals, for those that are bothered by them....mostly clean vocals throughout. I've been programmed for years by my hard core metal friend, so I don't even notice growling vocals anymore, lol! Such a talented band.

neil

[boilk]

Panzerballett-Breaking Brain will break your brain... tell em about polyrhythms

Is that their new album?!?! Love those guys!

neil

[boilk]

Wow, impressive, Panzerballett!!

neil

[sergio]

Wow, impressive, Panzerballett!!

neil

yip, brand new out on Gentleartofmusic. Nearly as good as Morglbl... but not quite as good

[ProgArtist]

There are all kinds of awesome bands out there right now, doing incredible things across all kinds of genres. They utilize a variety of textures and tonalities, in fresh, new exciting ways, as well as many who use very strong melodies in their song writing.

This thread is regarding bands that use polyrhythms and math-rock. Some are in the jazz field, so of course they may just do a solo or two, especially in a live setting. To try and force every form of progressive music back into a 1970s aesthetic, is ludicrous. I am so happy that I live in the now.

neil

This is really well said. The bands and songs that Skullhead is referring to (Awaken by Yes, Genesis, Renaissance) are among my favorite pieces and groups EVER, but I don't see why all music should share the exact same aesthetic. It reminds me a bit of people that pit minimalist art against more detailed work, saying "less is more" (or vise versa). No, less is NOT more. Less is SOMETIMES more. Sometimes it is not. There is a world of art and music out there, and I'm sure glad there's a variety.

[Scrotum Scissor]

There are all kinds of awesome bands out there right now, doing incredible things across all kinds of genres. They utilize a variety of textures and tonalities, in fresh, new exciting ways, as well as many who use very strong melodies in their song writing. [...] To try and force every form of progressive music back into a 1970s aesthetic, is ludicrous. I am so happy that I live in the now.

Having extensively collected 'progressive rock' music from five + decades, and starting out by way of the 70s purported "classics", I can only say that the most interesting developments within the field have occurred these past 20 years - and I'm not thinking of "70s wannabes". Musicians are generally better and more proficient, more instumentally and stylistically versatile and sensitive, possess more overall historical, cultural and theoretical knowledge and insight - and consequently produce more interesting results with their craft.

The fact that the grander audiences just aren't THERE anymore has - if anything - apparently only served as a gateway to artistic freedoms of expression. Interesting and fascinating progressive music is happening *now*.

[Phlakaton]

Having extensively collected 'progressive rock' music from five + decades, and starting out by way of the 70s purported "classics", I can only say that the most interesting developments within the field have occurred these past 20 years - and I'm not thinking of "70s wannabes". Musicians are generally better and more proficient, more instumentally and stylistically versatile and sensitive, possess more overall historical, cultural and theoretical knowledge and insight - and consequently produce more interesting results with their craft.

The fact that the grander audiences just aren't THERE anymore has - if anything - apparently only served as a gateway to artistic freedoms of expression. Interesting and fascinating progressive music is happening *now*.

Yup. The amount of wildly different and unique bands coming out of the woodwork these last 10 years has been pretty awesome. Bandcamp has made me a happy music nutter. So many great finds out there - and always another one to find. Instrumental (adj.) was posted earlier - that is another one of those great finds that is full of badass playing and definitely not a 70s old school thing.

[Bake 1]

Yup, the scrote clipper hits the bullseye again. A LOT of great stuff is happening now...(here's a tiny example) :

[Zeuhlmate]

New Math

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIKGV2cTgqA

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

Don Caballero?

[Skullhead]

Wow, impressive, Panzerballett!!

neil

Let me guess,

They all own a copy of "The Construction of Light"

[Skullhead]

This is really well said. The bands and songs that Skullhead is referring to (Awaken by Yes, Genesis, Renaissance) are among my favorite pieces and groups EVER, but I don't see why all music should share the exact same aesthetic. It reminds me a bit of people that pit minimalist art against more detailed work, saying "less is more" (or vise versa). No, less is NOT more. Less is SOMETIMES more. Sometimes it is not. There is a world of art and music out there, and I'm sure glad there's a variety.

I wish I could agree, but generally speaking I find an incredible lack of originality and creativity. How many guitarists are just going with the standard metal guitar sound that has zero unique quality in tone or timbre. The great 70's rock guitarists all had their unique easily identifiable tone. You could tell Santana or Page, Beck, Schenker, Trower, Howe ….. immediately. So while there are technically good players today, they are copy cat clones that lack their own sound.

There must be a 100 bands that sound like 2000's King Crimson. It's an easily copied formula for chops bands. Drummer plays odd meters, guitarist used the metal tone, the other plays cleaner with a bass player that sounds like a third guitarist. Throw it all into Pro Tools and quantize it to death so it sounds like a machine spitting out the music.

Even if you love these bands, wouldn't it be better if they toured with some kind of support so people could see and hear it live?

[Scrotum Scissor]

Let me guess, They all own a copy of "The Construction of Light"

This may come as a complete shock, but one of the main reasons why just KC have managed to survive the tidal waves of rock development is that they themselves were prone to influence from OTHERS - instead of idealizing their own at all damn cost. The phenomenon of math-rock, as it initially arose with bands such as NoMeansNo, Shudder to Think, Cheer-Accident, Slint, Don Caballero and Shellac, was far more indebted to the legacies of hardcore, nowave and post-punk and not least contemporary minimalism as to any of that old guard. So, while I suppose the metal fusion dudes in Panzerballett must have heard their share of KC (and other oldies), this is in fact not a dominant component of it.

With a disturbingly high rate of self-proclaimed "proggers", the very idea that there were actually OTHER major developments at play along the way obviously appears almost unthinkable, as if it defies an immanent logic of some sort - namely that somehow all trails lead back to a "known" source. These folks simply never seemed to care about the totality of the picture at all.

[Skullhead]

A more sophisticated use of odd meters would be to turn it into a song that has some melodic sensibility. The use of 13/8 back to a driving 4/4 (YES) with a tasteful guitar tone that has some bite to it without completely losing the dynamic quality that is killed by an overuse of distortion. The math rock stuff posted just made me reach for a bottle of aspirin. Why not work toward maturing the chops and music into something that might keep a listeners attention for more than 45 seconds.




No, I don't think the 70's prog bands all sounded the same… other than maybe Starcastle which completely ripped off YES.
Originality and creativity were encouraged and supported both by the bigger labels and the listening public. I see no advantage to keeping this stuff buried in the underground.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Er, yeah, and by any means not least:

[Baribrotzer]

This may come as a complete shock, but one of the main reasons why just KC have managed to survive the tidal waves of rock development is that they themselves were prone to influence from OTHERS - instead of idealizing their own at all damn cost. The phenomenon of math-rock, as it initially arose with bands such as NoMeansNo, Shudder to Think, Cheer-Accident, Slint, Don Caballero and Shellac, was far more indebted to the legacies of hardcore, nowave and post-punk and not least contemporary minimalism as to any of that old guard.

I'd argue, though, that Eighties Crimson were not part of the "old guard" - in spite of having several holdovers from that old guard as band members. They were a new-style art-rock band, moving in parallel with other such new-style art-rock artists of the day as Talking Heads, Magazine, Ultravox, XTC, Wire, and Peter Gabriel (another artist who re-invented himself at the time). They used many musical materials similar to the ones used by those artists, such as African-influenced guitar ostinati and electronic drums, but in a more "technical" and formally Minimalist fashion.

And I also suspect that any rock musician back then who listened to Steve Reich and Philip Glass was also at least aware of King Crimson - who, precisely because of their willingness to update their sound, were one of the few prog bands to not get quite the critical drubbing most of them got.

[Scrotum Scissor]

^

I agree, John. Although I'm still of the sentiment that KC's "old guard baggage" effectively blocked them from reaching halfway up the knee of Talking Heads, Magazine, Wire or XTC.

[Skullhead]

I'd argue, though, that Eighties Crimson were not part of the "old guard" - in spite of having several holdovers from that old guard as band members. They were a new-style art-rock band, moving in parallel with other such new-style art-rock artists of the day as Talking Heads, Magazine, Ultravox, XTC, Wire, and Peter Gabriel (another artist who re-invented himself at the time). They used many musical materials similar to the ones used by those artists, such as African-influenced guitar ostinati and electronic drums, but in a more "technical" and formally Minimalist fashion.

And I also suspect that any rock musician back then who listened to Steve Reich and Philip Glass was also at least aware of King Crimson - who, precisely because of their willingness to update their sound, were one of the few prog bands to not get quite the critical drubbing most of them got.

While there might be a similar sound to the overall finished mix to some of those other bands in the 80's, I don't think there is any comparison beyond that KC was light years ahead, more complex and progressive than Talking Heads, Magazine, Ultravox, XTC, Wire, and what Peter Gabriel was doing. While Bruford was experimenting with and electronic kit, he was PLAYING IT... and it was not a bunch of drum machine programmed nonsense. Talking Heads drum palate is BORING as hell, and it's hard to believe people thought that was cool. It's not cool, it's bad. Should I stop making sense? Those albums are very strong musically unlike the garbage most of the other prog bands were putting out at the time... securing their death and for good reason.

[Phlakaton]

While there might be a similar sound to the overall finished mix to some of those other bands in the 80's, I don't think there is any comparison beyond that KC was light years ahead, more complex and progressive than Talking Heads, Magazine, Ultravox, XTC, Wire, and what Peter Gabriel was doing. While Bruford was experimenting with and electronic kit, he was PLAYING IT... and it was not a bunch of drum machine programmed nonsense. Talking Heads drum palate is BORING as hell, and it's hard to believe people thought that was cool. It's not cool, it's bad. Should I stop making sense? Those albums are very strong musically unlike the garbage most of the other prog bands were putting out at the time... securing their death and for good reason.

I really enjoy the hell out of the early 80s KC... but they weren't doing anything that far out or light years ahead. The sound they had was fantastic but they weren't that much more sophisticated than The Talking Heads in my book. I don't need complexity for something to be great. I got a ton of joy from that music you claim is "bad" and "not cool." You just sound really depressing man. Damn...

[proggosaurus]

While there might be a similar sound to the overall finished mix to some of those other bands in the 80's, I don't think there is any comparison beyond that KC was light years ahead, more complex and progressive than Talking Heads, Magazine, Ultravox, XTC, Wire, and what Peter Gabriel was doing. While Bruford was experimenting with and electronic kit, he was PLAYING IT... and it was not a bunch of drum machine programmed nonsense. Talking Heads drum palate is BORING as hell, and it's hard to believe people thought that was cool. It's not cool, it's bad. Should I stop making sense? Those albums are very strong musically unlike the garbage most of the other prog bands were putting out at the time... securing their death and for good reason.

at the end of the day (and I really hate using that phrase), all of your negativity towards other peoples taste in music really only matters to you and you alone. what matters to me is what I like. I don't give a rat's ass what someone else thinks about it. If I'm listening to something in an open environment, I'm repectful enough of others to turn it down, off or use headphones. I do occasionally try to introduce a friend or acquaintence to something new, whatever genre it may be. if that person doesn't like it, I'm not going to strap em to a chair and cut off their fingers one by one until they do.

If I don't like a band's particular output, I'm not going to mentally deconstruct their efforts then overtly postulate how it should have been. I simply don't listen to it or try again another day.

figuratively speaking, the incessant Skullfucking is absurd.