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Thread: Prog Artists...Why do they allow Streaming?

  1. #26
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phlakaton View Post
    I cant speak for how its going for you as the business end... but for me as a music lover and consumer - it's fantastic. I've bought MORE music because of this. Hope it works well for you guys.
    How do you buy it? From Wayside (as physical items)? From BandCamp as digital items? From another vendor as either physical or digital (which and who)?

    What have you discovered that you liked? What did you expect to like that you didn't?

    thanks.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  2. #27
    Member gearHed289's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarplyrjvb View Post
    ^^ That I truly understand. Many prog artists aren't in it for the economics, they just want their music to be heard by as many people as possible.
    Pretty much my current situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    Because they're not mutually-exclusive?

    Because some of us use streaming services as a way to preview prospective purchases?

    Because some of us like to support the artists that we like?
    ^^^This, this, and this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunlight Caller View Post
    I'm not much into streaming at all, so tend to buy based on recommendations or reviews. From time to time I will seek something out and give it a listen in advance of a purchase, but being a collector and old school, I really like to own the physical media, and so streaming is never going to lose a physical sale on my account.
    I do very little streaming, but I will sometimes check stuff out on Bandcamp and/or YouTube before I buy. And I'm definitely very big on physical product. It's part of the whole experience, but that's a whole other conversation.

  3. #28
    Member Lebofsky's Avatar
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    In my case, I have hundreds of my solo songs (and from former bands) online for bandcamp streaming, and hundreds more waiting to get realized someday (hopefully before I die). Despite being in three active-ish "prog" bands (MoeTar, miRthkon, Secret Chiefs 3) this isn't enough exposure to draw attention to my work to make it a real commercial venture.

    What am I supposed to do? Options are:

    1. Print CDs and sell those. I've done this before streaming. At the cheapest you spend $100 to print 50 CD-Rs. You're lucky to sell 10 of them for $10, if that. So at best you break even, and still have dozens, hundreds, thousands of CDs piling up in your basement you can't bring yourself to throw away even though it stabs you in the heart every time you look at them. And the only people who hear the stuff are the people buying the CDs, i.e. effectively nobody.

    2. Throw everything onto bandcamp. Far more people are hearing your stuff, because many barriers are removed. Literally thousands of people, including many people who stumble upon it without any effort from me. And it cost me NOTHING. AND people throw money my way all the time. Nothing to live on, but still something. And if I actually put some effort into promotion, it translates to more dollars.

    3. Give up music.

    - Matt

  4. #29
    I vote 2...

  5. #30
    Member Lebofsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trurl View Post
    I vote 2...
    I agree - even though I should clarify this is MY best option, and only currently. My options and needs may change...... Always a moving target.

    - Matt

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    3 times. That's the minimum they allow. I'd make it 2 otherwise....

    It's an experiment we're trying. If it doesn't kill our sales, it is nice to allow people to hear what they want to buy. But ultimately I do need them to buy it or we're dead.

    This allowed us to set a definitive limit over how many times people can hear it for free and I'm pretty happy with the idea of it and BandCamp in general.

    Too soon to say how the experiment is working.
    That news was exciting to me, because I like your store and a lot of the music Cuneiform has released has been fascinating. This gives me an opportunity to hear some of it, and perhaps expand my horizons further by helping me to know what to buy and making me less tentative. Ordering without having heard a note from a particular artist/band takes some degree of bravery, but that was how a lot of us started out buying music anyway. The ability to hear some of it beforehand is a luxury, but it's one that I'm grateful for.

    I hope this experiment works out to have a positive effect for you.

  7. #32
    Member Digital_Man's Avatar
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    I'll have to look into this streaming thing.

    There's always going to be people who want a physical copy of something and as such I think there's always going to be people who want to pay for it. Nowhere does this seem more apparent than in prog circles. As a general rule we tend to want to support the scene and there seems to be no better way of doing that than monetarily.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    Because they're not mutually-exclusive?

    Because some of us use streaming services as a way to preview prospective purchases?

    Because some of us like to support the artists that we like?
    +1 on all three points.

  9. #34
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    I'm old enough to remember when the only way you were exposed to new music was on the radio. I use streaming as a way to discover new stuff. I couldn't afford to buy everything I thought I might be interested in back then, and I can't now (who among us can?). But now one can audition just about anything, in it's entirety or in sufficient enough amount to make a decision. I've bought dozens of CDs by artists I'd never heard before, strictly from listening to a stream of their album online. And after all, the :30 or 1:30 sample isn't really a good indicator of what an eighteen minute song actually sounds like.

  10. #35
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Man View Post
    (snip)I think there's always going to be people who want to pay for it. Nowhere does this seem more apparent than in prog circles. As a general rule we tend to want to support the scene and there seems to be no better way of doing that than monetarily.
    That's the biggest pile of starry eyed, "aren't we wonderful and SO much better than everyone else", total HORSESHIT I've ever read on this site.

    And that's really saying something.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  11. #36
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    Streaming-on-demand has sliced into paid or even FREE downloads more than most folks realize, I think. In ye olden days of yore, when someone said "I gotta get that new ____ album!," they meant "I must pay for a copy of that album in the medium of my choice!". I find, nowadays, that EVEN IF you can drum up a little bit of (quickly fading) enthusiasm for your new music thingy, "I gotta get that new ____ album!" simply means "I might stream a few seconds of that album, if I don't get distracted by something else first." It will have then been "gotten." "Oh, yeah, I got the _____," meaning "I streamed some of it once and I totally 'get' what their doing. Got it. Say, what's that shiny object over there...?"

    Listeners now have unfettered access to more music than any person could fathom. Musicians have unfettered access to the crushing void of indifference that is the Social Media Age. Baby/bathwater.

  12. #37
    Member Phlakaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    How do you buy it? From Wayside (as physical items)? From BandCamp as digital items? From another vendor as either physical or digital (which and who)?

    What have you discovered that you liked? What did you expect to like that you didn't?

    thanks.
    I have been buying from you since 92 and all physical copies... but the last few years and since the bandcamp option opened up I've gotten more digital than physical. Things like Roxy The Movie and some of my other collections demand a physical purchase occasionally still. Soft Machine in particular. I have a running list of bands on my wishlist now - since I can listen to them and actually hear what appeals to me - my purchases digitally have increased... and I hate to admit it - the price point is appealing to me too. Shipping and all that is out the window. $10 for excellent music is hard to pass up. Every couple weeks I go through the listing of releases and sample more. I just did a little count of what I've bought in the last year and a half or so. 21 or 22 digital albums. I love it.

    Stick Men was one I wouldn't have purchased before. Great stuff. Mats/Morgan was the most impressive and rewarding one I had put off for a long time but hearing samples grabbed me bigtime. Cellar and Point was another one I might not have picked up without the samples. Although the praise was hard to ignore.

  13. #38
    I tend to think to combat this more bands may move toward a type of video album/performance thing with audio only as a bonus feature, basically. That's what we're envisioning our next release to be.

  14. #39
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    I've streamed plenty of albums, prog and otherwise, and gone on to buy them either in CD or download. There's even a couple where first I bought a download and then loved it so much I bought a CD. I think for acts that appeal to those who still buy music, streaming is a good way to get noticed.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

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    Internet Radio....with a prog emphasis is also an option. There are quite a few fine stations such as Progzilla and The House of Prog that specialize in new progressive music to fit many tastes. All you need to do is contact some of the program hosts to get your music on the air. It costs nothing and could prove to be at least somewhat beneficial to artists, some of whom are already taking advantage of this option. I'd stay away from that Prog Doctor fellow on The House of Prog though....he seems a bit dodgy to me.

  16. #41
    Member AncientChord's Avatar
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    I've been able to discover many good bands on Soundcloud and Bandcamp that I was not previously aware of. Plus I was surprised to see major prog artists on both too. Most offer only one free track for downloading, while others offer completely free downloads. There's a really great entire free album by Marcus Reuter on Bandcamp as an example. And on Soundcloud I even downloaded some Steve Wilson and PT tracks that I didn't have. So I completely understand the marketing value of these streaming audio sites.
    Day dawns dark...it now numbers infinity.

  17. #42
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    That's the biggest pile of starry eyed, "aren't we wonderful and SO much better than everyone else", total HORSESHIT I've ever read on this site.

    And that's really saying something.
    Tell us how you *really* feel lol.

    While I think Mike is taking the concept too far, I think there's some evidence behind it in the sense that the prog rock demographic is nostalgic, somewhat Luddite, and tends to prefer physical medium. And I do think the niche "community" nature of the movement currently does lead to a bit of a "conscience" if nothing else. Whereas many of the next generation don't give the concept even a second thought.
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  18. #43
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harbinger58 View Post
    Internet Radio....with a prog emphasis is also an option. There are quite a few fine stations such as Progzilla and The House of Prog that specialize in new progressive music to fit many tastes. All you need to do is contact some of the program hosts to get your music on the air. It costs nothing and could prove to be at least somewhat beneficial to artists, some of whom are already taking advantage of this option.
    As a former internet radio host, my feelings is that this works on the smallest of scales only, as in maybe you turn on a few buddies. In fact, it's so small scale that if that same radio host came to PE and started a new thread on an album with some YouTube links, you'd render the same result.

    Also, many radio hosts are not really eager to take requests. Though I put a lot of thought and effort into my show, it was still largely "music I wanted to share" because I liked it.

    Lastly, the audience for these stations and shows hit a rather modest peak several years ago, plateaued out, and is in decline now. People may tune in to hear a particular show from a particular personality, but that's about it. The gold standard however likely remains The Gagliarchives which has been running some 20 years now and probably has more impact on exposing and purchasing of new music than any one I can think of. And that impact is still...modest.
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  19. #44
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    While I think Mike is taking the concept too far, I think there's some evidence behind it in the sense that the prog rock demographic is nostalgic, somewhat Luddite, and tends to prefer physical medium.
    I don't disagree with this at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    And I do think the niche "community" nature of the movement currently does lead to a bit of a "conscience" if nothing else.
    Yeah? All you have to do is read this board and see what all the people here are saying and doing to see how far that 'conscience' goes when it comes to reaching in their pocket.

    Not to mention my personal and painful experiences with some of these fans who walk up to me (not me bothering them) at festivals or concerts and tell me how much they love the work I am responsible for....

    ....that they admit stealing.



    and good morning to you.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  20. #45
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    I've streamed plenty of albums, prog and otherwise, and gone on to buy them either in CD or download. There's even a couple where first I bought a download and then loved it so much I bought a CD. I think for acts that appeal to those who still buy music, streaming is a good way to get noticed.
    I have done the same. However, I feel like when these discussions arise, no one discusses the elephant in the room - YouTube. As each 3-6 months passes, more and more content - full songs and full albums - find their way to YouTube. I know at least 5 people at my workplace that use YT as their "radio".

    So my feeling is, you might as well stream your music because someone is already doing it. I think Steve and others have the right idea about using sites like Bandcamp to consolidate their music in one place as well as offering purchasing options to the streamer.

    And as odd it may sound, streaming may have an impact on curtailing file sharing and downloading to a degree as well. I think you'd have a hard time measuring that assertion, but thought I'd throw it out there.
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  21. #46
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Yeah? All you have to do is read this board and see what all the people here are saying and doing to see how far that 'conscience' goes when it comes to reaching in their pocket.

    Not to mention my personal and painful experiences with some of these fans who walk up to me (not me bothering them) at festivals or concerts and tell me how much they love the work I am responsible for....

    ....that they admit stealing.
    Sure, I wasn't exactly making any claims of sainthood among prog fans.
    WANTED: Sig-worthy quote.

  22. #47
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    I have done the same. However, I feel like when these discussions arise, no one discusses the elephant in the room - YouTube. As each 3-6 months passes, more and more content - full songs and full albums - find their way to YouTube. I know at least 5 people at my workplace that use YT as their "radio".
    Absolutely. But it's perfectly easy to 'opt out' of YouTube officially and it's really also easy to knock down unauthorized stuff from YouTube.

    I don't like what they do. But at least they make it easy for me - as the legal owner of content - to remove it if I don't want it there.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  23. #48
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    Sure, I wasn't exactly making any claims of sainthood among prog fans.
    Prog Fans like and rationalize their 'free' music just the same as any other fans.

    'Bit of a conscience'? Feh!
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  24. #49
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Absolutely. But it's perfectly easy to 'opt out' of YouTube officially and it's really also easy to knock down unauthorized stuff from YouTube.

    I don't like what they do. But at least they make it easy for me - as the legal owner of content - to remove it if I don't want it there.
    Granted. But as someone who has released as many albums as you have, you could conceivably be spending your life scouring for content to remove. Clearly it seems that the vast majority of legal content holders don't know, don't care, or grow weary of that chase.
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  25. #50
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    Clearly it seems that the vast majority of legal content holders don't know, don't care, or grow weary of that chase.
    They get 'PAID', Cozy. Just like they get 'PAID' by Spotify. It's utterly insignificant as far as *I* am concerned, but you do get paid.

    If you do Spotify, there's no reason to NOT to do YouTube.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

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