Downes/Lake collaboration

**lak611** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by ProgArtist

As it seems you are a big ELP fan, I would give "Black Moon" a try. No, it's not as good as their first several albums, but I enjoy most of it.

Thanks! I'll check it out.

What about Lake? Did he record any other decent material?

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**bondegezou** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by Paulrus

IMO definitely for completists only.

Yes. I mean, if none of this stuff had ever been released, people would always be wondering what these sessions were like, wondered about the whatmighthavebeens, as we wonder about Howe's day in The Nice or Emerson, Lake & Bruford. So I'm glad that these sessions were released, that they're available for completists like me, but it is for completists only.

Originally Posted by lak611

I have everything by ELP up to and including "Love Beach". I don't have the live album with the orchestra or any of the 90s recordings (but I do have the Royal Albert Hall and Montreux DVDs). I also saw ELP in the 90s, so I'm familiar with a few songs from "Black Moon".

I've never heard Payne at all, and never even heard of him until browsing this forum. In fact I was unaware that Asia even existed after the end of the original lineup in the 80s. Other than the brief time Lake was in Asia, I thought Wetton was its only bassist/vocalist. How does Payne sound compared to Wetton and Lake?

I have Lake's two solo albums from the 80s "Greg Lake" and "Manoeuvres".

Given all that, I'd recommend Black Moon and maybe some of the recent Carl Palmer live albums.

Payne has his own sound: his writing is more... hair metal, I guess? I think Aqua's worth hearing, maybe Slient Nation or Aura, but I think the reunion Asia albums are generally better. YMMV.

Henry

**ytserush** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by musicislife

You're welcome! Enjoy. Beware, though - that may push you into other areas of exploration, like catching up with Holdsworth, or checking out the first couple of Bruford solo albums with Holdsworth - if you haven't already done so, of course. Things can get expensive in a hurry

Too late for that!

**Mascodagama** · 11-01-2016

Least interesting member of the Buggles with least interesting member of ELP, nah.

Now an Emerson / Horn collaboration might have yielded something worth hearing.

**lak611** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by Mascodagama

Least interesting member of the Buggles with least interesting member of ELP, nah.

Now an Emerson / Horn collaboration might have yielded something worth hearing.

I have no interest in Palmer and find him the least interesting ELP member.

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**lak611** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by bondegezou

Yes. I mean, if none of this stuff had ever been released, people would always be wondering what these sessions were like, wondered about the whatmighthavebeens, as we wonder about Howe's day in The Nice or Emerson, Lake & Bruford. So I'm glad that these sessions were released, that they're available for completists like me, but it is for completists only.

Given all that, I'd recommend Black Moon and maybe some of the recent Carl Palmer live albums.

Payne has his own sound: his writing is more... hair metal, I guess? I think Aqua's worth hearing, maybe Slient Nation or Aura, but I think the reunion Asia albums are generally better. YMMV.

Henry

I'll get "Black Moon" but pass on Palmer. I don't care to hear ELP songs without keyboards.

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**Mascodagama** · 11-01-2016

^^ I guess we differ then. I'm no particular fan of Palmer but Greg Lake has always struck me as a terrible singer and I can't say his bass playing ever got me excited either.

**musicislife** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by ytserush

Too late for that!

Get into jazz, and that increases exponentially

**ytserush** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by musicislife

Get into jazz, and that increases exponentially

It already has!

**ytserush** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by Mascodagama

^^ I guess we differ then. I'm no particular fan of Palmer but Greg Lake has always struck me as a terrible singer and I can't say his bass playing ever got me excited either.

Emerson and Palmer are far and away my favorites but I have softened ever so slightly on Lake over the years.

**JJ88** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by bondegezou

Given all that, I'd recommend Black Moon and maybe some of the recent Carl Palmer live albums.

Payne has his own sound: his writing is more... hair metal, I guess? I think Aqua's worth hearing, maybe Slient Nation or Aura, but I think the reunion Asia albums are generally better. YMMV.

Henry

Further reflections. RE; Black Moon. It's OK...no more, no less. I think Palmer's drum sound is a major drawback. But that trudge through 'Romeo And Juliet' and some of the lyrics in 'Footprints In The Snow' aside, there's nothing too embarrassing. The Downes co-write 'Affairs Of The Heart' isn't anything special and Lake's vocal was a little shocking to me when I first heard it...but Emerson's keyboard fills liven it up a bit.

RE; Payne-Asia. Heard quite a few of the albums, only one I liked was Aura. It's too long but there's some good music there- 'Ready To Go Home' (a cover) and 'Free' in particular. I'm increasingly less fond of Payne's 'grunting' vocal style, though perhaps that's a personal thing. That kind of 'macho' style I hear in Marc Bonilla as well.

**ProgArtist** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by Mascodagama

Least interesting member of the Buggles with least interesting member of ELP, nah.

Now an Emerson / Horn collaboration might have yielded something worth hearing.

Except that I find "Living in the Plastic Age", which has a lot of Downes' input, much better than "Adventures...", which has very little of Downes' input on it.

**ProgArtist** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by JJ88

Further reflections. RE; Black Moon. It's OK...no more, no less. I think Palmer's drum sound is a major drawback. But that trudge through 'Romeo And Juliet' and some of the lyrics in 'Footprints In The Snow' aside, there's nothing too embarrassing. The Downes co-write 'Affairs Of The Heart' isn't anything special and Lake's vocal was a little shocking to me when I first heard it...but Emerson's keyboard fills liven it up a bit.

While I'd call "Black Moon" good rather than okay, I do agree that the drum sound (and I would add the drumming itself) are one of the drawbacks to the album.

**lak611** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by ytserush

Emerson and Palmer are far and away my favorites but I have softened ever so slightly on Lake over the years.

The dream 80s band to me would have been Lake on vocals, Wetton on bass, Howe on guitar, and Bruford on drums.

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**JJ88** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by ProgArtist

While I'd call "Black Moon" good rather than okay, I do agree that the drum sound (and I would add the drumming itself) are one of the drawbacks to the album.

I was being harsh- about half of the album is certainly good (the two instrumentals are more than that), but the other average half kind of drags it down. Agree on the drumming- some very plodding stuff on here, compared with what he played in ELP throughout the 70s. But then what do you do with something like 'Paper Blood', which isn't very interesting rhythmically? (Emerson again livens that one up.)

**musicislife** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by lak611

The dream 80s band to me would have been Lake on vocals, Wetton on bass, Howe on guitar, and Bruford on drums.

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So, King Crimson without Fripp

Personally, I would have been more enamored with Howe in the 80s if he hadn't become so enamored with playing stadium rock power chords and had completely distanced himself from Downes (see the GTR debacle). Same goes for Wetton concerning Downes.

**grego** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by lak611

Has anyone purchased this CD? If so, how is it?

It sounds like soft version of Asia...or sometime like Asia mixed with ELPowell. Not very impressive record. Only one new song, other stuff is familiar.

**lak611** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by grego

It sounds like soft version of Asia...or sometime like Asia mixed with ELPowell. Not very impressive record. Only one new song, other stuff is familiar.

So it's similar to Lake's two solo albums?

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**grego** · 11-01-2016

^ No, not very similar, the sound is different, keyboards dominate all over. Lake's solo albums were more guitar oriented

**lak611** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by grego

^ No, not very similar, the sound is different, keyboards dominate all over. Lake's solo albums were more guitar oriented

That would make sense given that it has Downes rasher than Gary Moore.

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**grego** · 11-01-2016

^ I don't remember much of Lake solo stuff, aside of ELP. I have that 2 albums of his, but to say I was hooked must be an exaggeration. Lake/Downes album is surely for completists, as been said. No great revelations there.

**lak611** · 11-01-2016

Originally Posted by grego

^ I don't remember much of Lake solo stuff, aside of ELP. I have that 2 albums of his, but to say I was hooked must be an exaggeration. Lake/Downes album is surely for completists, as been said. No great revelations there.

Gary Moore was a good guitarist, but there was nothing proggy about Lake's solo albums. Most of the lyrics were really sappy and cringe worthy. Just think of some of the song titles like "Love You Too Much" or "Too Young to Love".

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**grego** · 11-01-2016

Yes, agree about Moore, but expected more from Lake solo stuff. Pretty conventional pop rock..Second album, Manouvres, is a tad better than 1st. But overall, both not very bright, kind of average...Lake/Downes Ride The Tiger are demo versions mostly, of his late ELP stuff.