Do CDs sound better than vinyl???

[kid_runningfox]

I respectfully disagree. I have some vinyl records from the 80s like EL&Powell, Kansas Power, and David Arkenstone Valley In The Clouds, which sound much better than the CD. These particular vinyls have more spacial depth and fuller sound. Other records which bragged about being digital, not so much. It all depends on whether albums were recorded on analog tape and ported to digital as an afterthought, or the entire process was digital. Back then, it was hit and miss and could've been either or. The production was equal in both cases, but that has little to do with spacial depth or fullness. Those qualities are more a function of the medium.

Oh, I agree absolutely with everything you say. What I mean, though, is the overall sound that the band and production team were aiming for, which would also include things like EQing decisions, micing techniques, what kind of ambience to apply, etc. In that sense, I think that albums like Big Generator are very much of their time. Of course, not every album of the period sounded like that, but BG is undoubtedly reflective of a particular sound very much in vogue at the time. I seem to recall that Triumph's two albums of the same period, The Sport of Kings and Surveillance, have a similarly harsh, brittle sound to BG, which I'm not sure can be entirely blamed on the recording medium alone.

[bob_32_116]

12" vinyl makes a much better Frisbee. That being said, CDs make better mobiles.

(Immediately remembers "Goldfinger")

[AZProgger]

"Spatial depth" having (one would assume) everything to do with channel separation, how would one explain, using the physics of the universe we live in, a vinyl album having more separation than a cd? I'm not trying to be a dick here, I'm really interested.

In hi-res and most vinyl, there's more distance between each and every instrument within the mix, giving more of a sense of space. It's not so much where they sit on the left-right panning axis, the increased sense of space is even apparent in a mono mix. A CD sounds more crowded by comparison.

[trurl]

In hi-res and most vinyl, there's more distance between each and every instrument within the mix, giving more of a sense of space. It's not so much where they sit on the left-right panning axis, the increased sense of space is even apparent in a mono mix. A CD sounds more crowded by comparison.

And how does this happen?

[AZProgger]

And how does this happen?

By capturing and reproducing finer detail than is possible with 16/44.1 resolution. In other words, more information.

[trurl]

By capturing and reproducing finer detail than is possible with 16/44.1 resolution. In other words, more information.

More information? On vinyl? Of what type? Vinyl, even against 16/44 is limited wth respect to frequency response, crosstalk (where digital will always be zero) and dynamic range.

[AZProgger]

More information? On vinyl? Of what type? Vinyl, even against 16/44 is limited wth respect to frequency response, crosstalk (where digital will always be zero) and dynamic range.

The audio waveform of a band or orchestra is extremely complex. There's way more to it than the loudest louds, quietest quiets, highest highs or lowest lows

[trurl]

The audio waveform of a band or orchestra is extremely complex. There's way more to it than the loudest louds, quietest quiets, highest highs or lowest lows

Like what. And assuming you have that on tape, does any analog medium reproduce that with "more distance between each instrument" than a cd? Would, say, chiseling a groove into a rock, despite the other obvious limitations that would impose??

[simon moon]

To answer the OP, CD does many things better than vinyl, but not everything.

All else being equal, vinyl still has the ability to recreate the 3d soundstage better than CD. This is especially noticeable on well recorded classical and jazz.

I have vinyl classical recordings, where it seems I can actually walk around the musicians, in the space they were recorded in. The same reissued recordings on CD just don't have that. The musicians seem more like cardboard cutouts.

On the other hand, I've heard some native DSD recordings recorded direct to DSD, and others from master tapes and they are unbelievably good. So good, that despite the limited source material, I just ordered a new DAC capable of up to 8x DSD.

[bob_32_116]

The audio waveform of a band or orchestra is extremely complex. There's way more to it than the loudest louds, quietest quiets, highest highs or lowest lows

Well, yes, but basically what it boils down to is that fidelity of audio reproduction is measured by how well all frequencies are captured and reproduced, since any sound can be mathematically expressed as the sum of sine waves of different frequencies and amplitudes.

The primary shortcoming of digital recording or reproduction is that, because it's digital, there is a maximum bit rate, which sets the limit on the highest frequencies that can be captured. Analogue recording does not have any such inherent limitation, though of course I'm sure that any physical setup will have its own limitations. For example you can't convince me that it's possible to make a tone-arm that moves up and down EXACTLY in concert with the ups and downs in the grooves of a vinyl album, irrespective of frequency.

[trurl]

All kinds of physical limitations exist in the world of analog on frequency response. Just look at the published specs of any turntable or tape based recorder. That said, with the help of modern electronics and systems like Dolby-C and DBX analog tape can have crazy good specs, but there are always compromises. Run at high tape speed and the high end will glisten but the bottom end will suffer. Even tape has a resolution of magnetic particles; it's just very fine and high.

And I think there are a lot of misconceptions about how digital really handles frequency and how the Nyquist Theorem and oversampling work:

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/dem...g.html#toc_1ch

None of which takes away from the fact that if one feels vinyl has a sound that they prefer that's perfectly valid and I would never try and take that away. I really do like it as a medium just for enjoying the whole music experience of packaging, getting it out, cleaning it, putting it on a big nutty machine, etc. I just think there's a lot of woo involved in justifying that when all you really have to do is say, "I like it. F**k off."

[trurl]

More food for thought:

http://www.mixonline.com/news/profil...ng-rate/365968

[rcarlberg]

In hi-res and most vinyl, there's more distance between each and every instrument within the mix, giving more of a sense of space. A CD sounds more crowded by comparison.

Jesus, it's not that hard to explain. A 12" LP has a lot more room to spread out the instruments than a cramped little 5" CD. Why is this so hard for you???

[rcarlberg]

For example you can't convince me that it's possible to make a tone-arm that moves up and down EXACTLY in concert with the ups and downs in the grooves of a vinyl album, irrespective of frequency.

Or, presumably, back-and-forth.

[klothos]

Jesus, it's not that hard to explain. A 12" LP has a lot more room to spread out the instruments than a cramped little 5" CD. Why is this so hard for you???

[bob_32_116]

Some things just shouldn't be consigned to a lingering death on vinyl.

On one of the radio programmes I regularly listen to. the DJs are forever banging on about vinyl, how lovely it is that such and such an album has finally been re-released ON VINYL, how all or most of tonight's show is bloody VINYL, what a treat for you listeners. And then he played "The Sirens" from David Bedford's "The Odyssey", which I happen to have on CD. I settled back to listen, and could not enjoy it because of the cracks and pops. Surface noise probably doesn't matter if you are listening to The Ramones - some might even say it's a good thing - but for sublime music like that particular track from The Odyssey, with those pure choral parts, it just ruins the experience, and I was thankful that this was not my first hearing of that album, as it would have put me off.

I wouldn't mind so much that lots of people prefer vinyl to CD, except that so many of them never seem able to shut up about it.

[PeterG]

This is one question:
Do CDs sound better than vinyl? No

This is another question, and perhaps the one you meant to ask:
Is the clarity of sound on a CD better than on vinyl? Yes

[rcarlberg]

Some things just shouldn't be consigned to a lingering death on vinyl.

On one of the radio programmes I regularly listen to. the DJs are forever banging on about vinyl, how lovely it is that such and such an album has finally been re-released ON VINYL, how all or most of tonight's show is bloody VINYL, what a treat for you listeners. And then he played "The Sirens" from David Bedford's "The Odyssey", which I happen to have on CD. I settled back to listen, and could not enjoy it because of the cracks and pops. Surface noise probably doesn't matter if you are listening to The Ramones - some might even say it's a good thing - but for sublime music like that particular track from The Odyssey, with those pure choral parts, it just ruins the experience, and I was thankful that this was not my first hearing of that album, as it would have put me off.

I wouldn't mind so much that lots of people prefer vinyl to CD, except that so many of them never seem able to shut up about it.

My thoughts exactly.

The people who claim music sounds better on vinyl cannot put that "improvement" into any terms that pass scientific scrutiny. It's all airy-fairy nonsense like "there is more space between the instruments" or "the depth of field is immense" or "the instruments don't crowd each other" or "the mix is more cohesive" or "the composer's intent is more clearly audible" or that old standby, "it sounds warmer." If you take any of these supposed advantages apart you realize they are all perception -- not measurable -- and therefore like eyewitness accounts at an accident totally unreliable. What one person hears may be the opposite of what another hears.

One thing I think we can all agree on(!) however is that vinyl has groove noise and pops and ticks, and since those ARE measurable and not part of the composer's intent, they're deleterious.

[bob_32_116]

One thing I think we can all agree on(!) however is that vinyl has groove noise and pops and ticks, and since those ARE measurable and not part of the composer's intent, they're deleterious.

Except - at the start of the title track on Wish You Were Here, there are lots of audible cracks and pops, and although I expected they wouldn't be on the CD version, somehow they are still there.

[rcarlberg]

Ha! Nostalgia for surface noise. David Sylvian and others have dubbed in grotty vinyl sounds in their recent digital efforts, and it never fails to amuse me.

It's just a matter of time -- unless someone's already done it? -- before one of these "pioneers" releases something in mono only.

I'm sure these sound Very Progressive to somebody born in the CD era.

[Marsyas]

http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php...=Myths_(Vinyl)
'nuff sed.

[WHORG]

Ha! Nostalgia for surface noise. David Sylvian and others have dubbed in grotty vinyl sounds in their recent digital efforts, and it never fails to amuse me.

It's just a matter of time -- unless someone's already done it? -- before one of these "pioneers" releases something in mono only.

I'm sure these sound Very Progressive to somebody born in the CD era.

It's been done for a while now !!!

https://www.izotope.com/en/products/...ruments/trash/

It's a plugin that can add surface noise and other odd types of distortions to your creations !!!

[rcarlberg]

http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php...=Myths_(Vinyl)
'nuff sed.

I get the same feeling reading this as I do reading most atheist websites. Jesus, isn't it already blazingly obvious without having to spell everything out?

[rcarlberg]

It's been done for a while now !!!

https://www.izotope.com/en/products/...ruments/trash/

It's a plugin that can add surface noise and other odd types of distortions to your creations !!!

Start trashing your audio immediately with an extensive new preset library

So, for only $99 you can make a cheap CD player sound like a $20,000 turntable.

[ronmac]

I get the same feeling reading this as I do reading most atheist websites. Jesus, isn't it already blazingly obvious without having to spell everything out?

God created surface noise, huh?