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Thread: AAJ Review: Yes, Progeny: Seven Shows from Seventy-Two

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    Yes, indeed. But you can adopt, adapt and even, in some cases, improve. The impositions of age need not make you less creative or less passionate, even if they might mean less range or chops.
    I think what's really going on now is that Yes is a job for them, not a passion. An often-enjoyable job, sure, but still a job. The passion got lost in the petty squabbles, money troubles and record industry crappiness they went through in the latter '70s, undoubtedly going along with what working so closely for years with incompatible personalities does to people.

    Yes exists because they need the money and the other gigs they enjoy more don't pay the bills. No shame in that, really.

  2. #52
    Member Brian Griffin's Avatar
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    I've seen the band over 60 times, starting in 75

    For me, comparing the current shows to the 70's gigs makes about as much sense as comparing anything post 70's to Close to the Edge

    Things are classics for a reason

    I enjoy the later day discs and shows just fine

    While I enjoy it, does anyone really think "A Grounding in Numbers" should be held up against Pawn Hearts?

    Just to be clear, I like it all from them as well, but things change

    BG
    "When Yes appeared on stage, it was like, the gods appearing from the heavens, deigning to play in front of the people."

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by profusion View Post
    I think what's really going on now is that Yes is a job for them, not a passion. An often-enjoyable job, sure, but still a job. The passion got lost in the petty squabbles, money troubles and record industry crappiness they went through in the latter '70s, undoubtedly going along with what working so closely for years with incompatible personalities does to people.

    Yes exists because they need the money and the other gigs they enjoy more don't pay the bills. No shame in that, really.
    The shame is the millions and millions of dollars they must have squandered due to malfeasance, pettiness, greed and whatever else .

    Maybe even the first million dollars is enough for 99.999% of the population to live on for a lifetime.

    Apparently this is not true for rock stars.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Griffin View Post

    While I enjoy it, does anyone really think "A Grounding in Numbers" should be held up against Pawn Hearts?
    Well . . .

    It's not as ambitious or out there as Pawn Hearts, but I really do hold Grounding up to the 70s output. Not a drop off.

    I get that I'm probably looking at it through a fan-boy perspective, so I'm not unbiased. I'd say the same thing about Crimson's The Power to Believe.
    I want to dynamite your mind with love tonight.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    While I like the review (as I like Progeny)...I have to ask: was the intent for the article to be an indictment of current Yes, or a celebration of the Progeny release, or both? I ask because my opinion is that for a review of an archival release, there was an unusually-high amount of time spent making pointed references to the current band.
    A good question. I certainly didn't set out to be so hard on Yes 2014/15. I was set on celebrating Progeny, which was rocking my boat in a big way. But the more I listened to it the more it made me feel "how the mighty have fallen," and it kinda just wrote itself as you've seen it. Which is often how it goes. I start with a base premise and just start writing. What I end up with is often not what I went in with, intent-wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    Since we keep mentioning VDGG...IMHO a review of the recent VDGG BBC release doesn't need to also include extensive references to the current lineup's vitality (beyond a passing reference), but should simply stand on it's own as a statement on the strength of that archival release. Not sure why an equivalent Yes archival release cannot also stay focused in a similar manner. If Genesis released another archival concert from '77 would it also require comparisons to the 2007 tour's strengths/weaknesses?
    All true and good points. But reviewing something great does not mandate including a lot of coverage about a band who is (IMO) still great, it's the contrast between Yes 1972 and Yes of recent years that just kept hitting my head as I listened to the shows in the box over...and over...and over again. I guess I should apologize for placing such emphasis on how bad I think current Yes is, but I also felt it important to explain why Progeny is such a vital document fr those who weren't around at the time and for whom, for example, the only exposure to CttE in its entirety is, indeed, current-day Yes. It just felt important to me to point out exactly why Yes was so great in 1972 and why, in 2014-15, they're just...not.

    As for Genesis '77 vs '07? I don think it's the same. You can choose to indict Genesis for playing less overt Prog after 1980 or so...but you can't say they did it badly or in a lacklustre fashion. While owning many Genesis shows from the same tour makes like sense to me as they were always trying to replicate each night as precisely as possible, with little desire for interpretation, the one thing I can say about every show I've seen or heard from across the period: they always played with as much energy as they ever did. And they generally didn't drag tempos or play sloppily. In other words, you may not have liked the music but whatever they did, they did it well. Again, it pains me to say the same is not true of today's Yes. And thus the need to compare and contrast.

    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    This is all pure armchair-style critiquing, mind you...just my own $0.02 as a fan of Yes in general. I like and even love some later Yes stuff, but I can appreciate where you are coming from even if I don't agree entirely.
    It's fair Noush...and because you're did discussing it reasonably as opposed to torching me, perfectly fine for you to question why I wrote it ask did.

    I guess the only thing I'll add is this: folks who read my stuff know I'm one who's generally lodge to get too negative so, consider this: when I do, there's usually pretty darn good reason...at least from my perspective. Which is, of course, far from the final word on the subject. It's just my word on the subject

    Hope this helps at least clarify why, even if you disagree.
    Last edited by jkelman; 06-03-2015 at 07:24 AM.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    ^John hasn't just focussed his ire on them *now* but also on a release I personally have little problem with- the Montreux show. The 'Awaken' on that is something for the ages, IMHO- it's a truly powerful performance, note the crowd's euphoric reaction just before the coda, I feel similarly as it is clearly a quite special performance.
    And you'll note that in an earlier post, after hearing folks' comments about the 2003 tour, I did say that perhaps I need to go back and revisit that one...which I plan on doing but just haven't had time yet. But please remember I said that. I may be many things, but one thing I'm not is averse to admitting I'm wrong...or, at least, revisiting things if enough folks question what I've written to see it I am, because when I spoke of Montreux (indirectly, I recall), it was based on memory, not having listened to it recently.. .

    So I said I'd revisit the Montreux show...and revisit I shall...soon....I promise

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    Just for saying...I've got no beef with John. Hell, in the end this is HIS review and he can/should say what he thinks. His reviews, even when I disagree with him, are excellent and engaging reads.

    My only observation is that, in part due to his own drawing of attention to the topic via the footnote, this thread has very little to do with the release that was reviewed. Instead, it has become (yet another) meditation on the state of modern Yes. If that was his intent then peachy. But my own opinion is that Progeny isn't getting enough focus in this context and that seems odd (granted, there is already another thread so this really is just about the AAJ review).

    Again...just my own $0.02 here. I'd kind of sworn I'd steer clear of most Yestalk on PE, but...well, nobody's perfect
    That's where this bread has gone, but if you look at the review, the majority of it is about Progeny. That folks have chosen to question my criticizing modern day Yes is something I've no control over...though I did include a long footnote in my original post to explain why I did it at all in the review, in the hopes that his would not be a flame war...and it hasn't, for which I thank y'all.

    But after I answer a couple more posts, perhaps you're right...let's get back to what a tremendous box Progeny is...because it is, a few quotes from my review to set that up:

    But given Yes' less improv-heavy disposition and greater tendency to detailed compositional constructs, is there really value in hearing seven shows recorded between October 31 and November 20, 1972—sets that were almost identical, with the exception of Howe occasionally flipping his solo medley of the countrified "Clap" and more classically oriented "Mood for a Day," and one show where, for technical reasons, that medley was placed between "I've Seen All Good People" and "Heart of the Sunrise" rather than between "Heart of the Sunrise" and "And You And I"?

    The answer, surprising though it may be, is an absolute, unequivocal—and, with no pun intended—yes. The group's arrangements may not have changed from night to night, but beyond the more obvious differences in Howe's and Wakeman's solos from one show to the next, it was how the entire band interpreted the material that makes Progeny such a vital and important addition to the Yes catalog.

    Yes, there was a live album at the time—the triple-LP set Yessongs (Atlantic, 1973)—which, in addition to documenting this tour by collecting what were considered some of Yes' best performances, also included a couple of tunes from Bruford'a final tour with the group. But, as superb as the performances are on that live album (since reissued as a two-CD set), it was sadly marred by muddy sound and a mix that did not replicate the positioning of the band members across the soundstage and, consequently, didn't serve the individual players' work as well as it should have.

    What a treat, then, to discover that while Progeny may lack show-stopping tracks from The Yes Album like "Starship Trooper" and "Perpetual Change," or Fragile's medley of "Long Distance Runaround" and "The Fish (Schindleria Praematurus)"—the latter a feature for Squire that positioned him as creative and virtuosic a partner as Howe and Wakeman—the seven shows presented here are orders of magnitude better, sonically speaking. And by mixing the band as it was on stage—with Howe to the far left, Anderson next followed by White, Squire and, on the far right, Wakeman—the delineation between the musicians is much greater, making Howe and Wakeman's parts, in particular, that much clearer than they were on Yessongs, revealing so much more about the chances they took each night and making every performance different and worth hearing,

    This was a time when the group was still young and hungry....

  8. #58
    And...

    Assessing each performance individually is pointless; every show has much to recommend. Howe's electric tone is thicker and more visceral than his current sound, and benefits greatly from it; his impromptu fills and equally spontaneous solos—retaining the signatures that made them so good on the studio recordings while opening them up far more in concert—a treat to finally hear in a fidelity they deserve. His solo medley of "Clap" and "Mood for a Day" makes clear that this is more than "just" a rock guitarist; this is a guitar student who—as familiar with Chet Atkins and Andrés Segovia as he was Chuck Berry—was, at the time, absorbing influences like a sponge to evolve a voice that was absolutely unique. Few guitarists could understand what he was doing harmonically during the frenetic opening minutes of "Close to the Edge," and his ability to extend and expand upon the studio performance only serves to demonstrate now sophisticated he truly was.

    Squire's tone is finally captured as it was live; massive at the bottom end and crystal clear at the top, he proves himself adept at taking fixed arrangements and breathing new life into them, night after night. Considering that early in the tour the bassist had to perform such difficult music while, at the same time (with his back to the audience) helping to guide White through these knotty compositions only serves to demonstrate how well he had internalized this music, and it's that kind of internalization that allowed him—and the rest of the group—to take the music out of its glass box and turn it into a living, breathing thing.

    Anderson's voice is almost pitch perfect, as he hits high notes with ease, largely sticking to script but, at the same time, making small spontaneous adjustments that, again, made these performances more than the perfect replication that was, largely from inception, the objective of fellow progressive rockers Genesis.

    Wakeman is positively a revelation, heard so clearly for the first time. With his arsenal of keyboards—ranging from piano and electric piano to Minimoog and Mellotron(s)—beyond his clear virtuosity is what he adds to each song...lines that spontaneously and emotionally either mirror or act contrapuntally to Howe. And in his own solo spot, "Excerpts from Six Wives of Henry VIII"—culled from his 1973 A&M solo album debut that literally sold in the millions—he demonstrates that he may be a serious player, but he's got a sense of humor, too.

    And what of White? He joined Yes with mighty big shoes to fill and, while his kit tone isn't as distinctive, on these performances he plays with a fire and commitment that more than makes up for it. By the time of these seven shows, White had become completely familiar with the material, affording him the same opportunity to extemporize while, at the same time, hitting every cue with laser-like precision. Beyond his work on Relayer, in fact, his playing on Progeny may well be his finest recorded moments with the group. Ever.

    That the performances on Progeny are so stellar doesn't meant there aren't a few warts. Howe loses himself at one point during that frenetic introductory segment of "Close to the Edge" in Greensboro, NC, and it's a bit of a tough slog to find his way back...but find his way back he does. Wakeman was plagued with technical problems throughout the tour, in particular somehow managing to turn his keyboard arsenal into a radio receiver so that, in the Toronto, Canada show it comes through loud and clear during his solo segment. During another show, Anderson's voice cuts out and at yet another, during Howe's solo feature, his acoustic guitar suddenly becomes much brighter and more strongly positioned on the far left of the soundstage. And while the three-part harmonies are, for the most part impeccable, there are a few clams to be found, here and there.

    But overall, this is a collection of Yes at its transcendent, majestic, grandiose...and, yes, hard-rocking best. For the more casual fan there's Progeny: Highlights from Seventy-Two, a two-CD set that cherry picks from the seven performances to create a "best of" replication of every evening's set list, as well as a three-LP version of the same compilation. But for those who are committed Yes fans, Progeny: Seven Shows from Seventy-Two is an essential document of Yes when it was young, with a powerful fire in its belly and innovation oozing from every pore. It's an essential addition to the group's sizeable discography— capturing, as it does, the band before it began to implode from within with personnel problems and artistic differences; and before it became a bloated but pale shadow of its former self, during a period of peak creativity when Yes was one of but a few groups who ruled the prog world...and beyond.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by mx20 View Post
    Not my favorite of John's reviews, but one that I largely agree with. I do think it's valid to compare '72 to '15, considering how much of this material is still trotted out ad nauseum. I also agree with Steve F. and others who have occasionally glimpsed true fire from some latter-day lineups; my "moments" were "Awaken" on the Union tour in Atlanta and the Masterworks tour (from which a live album should have been issued!) in Raleigh. I've been disappointed with every subsequent Yes gig I've attended, and finally gave up after Greensboro, NC in.... 2006-ish? (can't recall the date. It was the tour with the abominable "unplugged" mini-feature)
    Just curious...why is it not one of your favourite of my reviews? I mean that honestly. If there's something I should learn from it's constructive criticism. So if you'd be kind enough to explain I'd truly appreciate it.

    Seems that the story of the tapes & the mixing thereof would have featured prominently in this review; that's certainly one of the more interesting aspects. In an age where much the band(s) laborious background info could simply be hypertexted-in via a Wiki link, some technical info should perhaps have been given priority.
    I thought about it...but decided to focus on the music.

    But, as someone who's heard some of this set but is still deciding if extra cash for extra shows will be worth it in the long run, I appreciate the review.

    There are several songs in this static setlist that I have no desire to hear even once more!
    You may be surprised, as that's what I was thinking as I went in....

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Griffin View Post
    While I enjoy it, does anyone really think "A Grounding in Numbers" should be held up against Pawn Hearts?
    Not PH, but absolutely any other of VdGG's '70s stuff, absolutely.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by profusion View Post
    I think what's really going on now is that Yes is a job for them, not a passion. An often-enjoyable job, sure, but still a job. The passion got lost in the petty squabbles, money troubles and record industry crappiness they went through in the latter '70s, undoubtedly going along with what working so closely for years with incompatible personalities does to people.

    Yes exists because they need the money and the other gigs they enjoy more don't pay the bills. No shame in that, really.
    No, no shame. But on an artistic, creative level they cannot be considered as they once were, can they? And for me, ivevno issue with bands working fora living. But I always hope there's still some foreign their collective belly. That, Yes do not have anymore, IMO.

  12. #62
    Member proggy_jazzer's Avatar
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    I'll start by saying I'm 100% in agreement with John as far as the state of current live Yes vis a vis the '72 band. But this sentence caught my eye, and something bugs me about it (emphasis added):

    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    ...I also felt it important to explain why Progeny is such a vital document fr those who weren't around at the time and for whom, for example, the only exposure to CttE in its entirety is, indeed, current-day Yes. It just felt important to me to point out exactly why Yes was so great in 1972 and why, in 2014-15, they're just...not.
    I know you mean those whose only exposure to live, in person Yes is the current incarnation, but even so, is this truly important? After all, anyone of any age and any generation is able to go back to the original document or any of the other live versions of their own volition and make the determination for his/herself, right? Or do you feel that you are somehow protecting listeners from being exposed to today's inferior product? It's all so subjective; can any of us imagine what it would be like to be a current 14-16 year old seeing Yes for the first time on the current tour? I think it's entirely possible that such a person would be as blown away by what they see and hear as those of us who were fortunate enough to hear them in the '70s were. My fear is that by reading a review such as this, this theoretical potential new fan might be put off before ever having a chance to explore all the great music this band has produced over the past decades. Of course, the hope is that anyone would take the initiative and go see for themselves rather than take the word of one reviewer, but in this day and age of the Internet I think many might read the review and decide to give the concert a pass, which would be unfortunate, regardless of what any of us...more seasoned listeners might think.

    Just something to consider. As always, thanks for your thorough and well-written review.
    David
    Happy with what I have to be happy with.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    That's where this bread has gone, but if you look at the review, the majority of it is about Progeny. That folks have chosen to question my criticizing modern day Yes is something I've no control over...though I did include a long footnote in my original post to explain why I did it at all in the review, in the hopes that his would not be a flame war...and it hasn't, for which I thank y'all.
    On this topic you can't win. No matter how obvious your observations are to most reasonable people.

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by N_Singh View Post
    The shame is the millions and millions of dollars they must have squandered due to malfeasance, pettiness, greed and whatever else .

    Maybe even the first million dollars is enough for 99.999% of the population to live on for a lifetime.

    Apparently this is not true for rock stars.
    Understatement.. for all the whining the "99%ers" did a few years ago (and still do) on a world scale.. they are truly 1%ers.. just sayin'...

  15. #65
    Member Brian Griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    Not PH, but absolutely any other of VdGG's '70s stuff, absolutely.
    Quote Originally Posted by polmico View Post
    Well . . .

    It's not as ambitious or out there as Pawn Hearts
    I like it and spin it fairly regularly, but it's a far cry from any of the 70's releases as far as those parameters

    Big VDGG fan, I only used them as a reference because John did

    Could have been Nektar, Genesis, PFM, or any of my favorites

    Different, still great, but not quite what it was, (not quite sure how they could be), and that's cool - just glad they are still putting out stuff that has their signature, and playing the old songs live

    BG
    "When Yes appeared on stage, it was like, the gods appearing from the heavens, deigning to play in front of the people."

  16. #66
    Member Kcrimso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Griffin View Post
    I like it and spin it fairly regularly, but it's a far cry from any of the 70's releases as far as those parameters

    Big VDGG fan, I only used them as a reference because John did

    Could have been Nektar, Genesis, PFM, or any of my favorites

    Different, still great, but not quite what it was, (not quite sure how they could be), and that's cool - just glad they are still putting out stuff that has their signature, and playing the old songs live

    BG
    I agree. I really like A Grounding In Numbers but it is not even nearly in the same league as Pawn Hearts, Godbluff, Still Life and World Record. And let's not forget that other "new" VdGG albums were even lesser works.

    King Crimson's The Power To Believe is one "recent" album by veteran band that I would put against any of their classics. Stunning album.
    My progressive music site: https://pienemmatpurot.com/ Reviews in English: https://pienemmatpurot.com/in-english/

  17. #67
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    I dunno. I don't need an artist to constantly improve upon their classics - especially when they have 4-5 classics. Just give me something that's enjoyable to listen to. Yes did that with Fly from Here, IMO, but failed miserably with Heaven & Earth. Hopefully Chris Squire completely recovers and they bounce back with a new one. If not, then there's a veritable plethora of other music out there that I still don't have time to listen to.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    A good question. I certainly didn't set out to be so hard on Yes 2014/15. I was set on celebrating Progeny, which was rocking my boat in a big way. But the more I listened to it the more it made me feel "how the mighty have fallen," and it kinda just wrote itself as you've seen it. Which is often how it goes. I start with a base premise and just start writing. What I end up with is often not what I went in with, intent-wise.


    All true and good points. But reviewing something great does not mandate including a lot of coverage about a band who is (IMO) still great, it's the contrast between Yes 1972 and Yes of recent years that just kept hitting my head as I listened to the shows in the box over...and over...and over again. I guess I should apologize for placing such emphasis on how bad I think current Yes is, but I also felt it important to explain why Progeny is such a vital document fr those who weren't around at the time and for whom, for example, the only exposure to CttE in its entirety is, indeed, current-day Yes. It just felt important to me to point out exactly why Yes was so great in 1972 and why, in 2014-15, they're just...not.

    As for Genesis '77 vs '07? I don think it's the same. You can choose to indict Genesis for playing less overt Prog after 1980 or so...but you can't say they did it badly or in a lacklustre fashion. While owning many Genesis shows from the same tour makes like sense to me as they were always trying to replicate each night as precisely as possible, with little desire for interpretation, the one thing I can say about every show I've seen or heard from across the period: they always played with as much energy as they ever did. And they generally didn't drag tempos or play sloppily. In other words, you may not have liked the music but whatever they did, they did it well. Again, it pains me to say the same is not true of today's Yes. And thus the need to compare and contrast.


    It's fair Noush...and because you're did discussing it reasonably as opposed to torching me, perfectly fine for you to question why I wrote it ask did.

    I guess the only thing I'll add is this: folks who read my stuff know I'm one who's generally lodge to get too negative so, consider this: when I do, there's usually pretty darn good reason...at least from my perspective. Which is, of course, far from the final word on the subject. It's just my word on the subject

    Hope this helps at least clarify why, even if you disagree.
    Hi John...sure, I respect where you're coming from. Thanks for taking the time to offer up a well-considered response

    And I only partially disagree, to be fair: I have passed on Yes tours for the past few years after seeing a show supporting FFH (i.e. the last before the classic albums tour trend started). Davison had already joined and I thought he was good, but the band as a whole wasn't...and, I simply didn't enjoy myself. Left before the end of the show in fact. Based on my enjoyment of FFH I like to believe the band still has the potential to be interesting in the studio at least, although my "meh" impression of H&E didn't exactly reinforce that belief. But...I'm still willing to give a semi-unbiased ear to whatever they might do next in the studio (if anything).

    Part of my response comes from fatigue regarding Yes threads in general on PE. I wish it were possible to talk about Yes without having things eventually devolve into a debate about whether Yes is still valid, should continue, or give up and go away. But that is my own baggage coming to the table and...well, like I said, I'd promised myself a while ago that I'd just stop even posting about Yes on PE and I broke my own rule here

    In short...it's all good
    If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
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  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by proggy_jazzer View Post
    I know you mean those whose only exposure to live, in person Yes is the current incarnation, but even so, is this truly important? After all, anyone of any age and any generation is able to go back to the original document or any of the other live versions of their own volition and make the determination for his/herself, right? Or do you feel that you are somehow protecting listeners from being exposed to today's inferior product?
    Of course I don't and if it appears that I do, then my bad. But I have read some folks raving about current Yes shows, and I felt it important to make clear that compared to when they were at their performing peak(s), they're a pale shadow. And so, if anyone is on the fence about the entire box, if they are hardcore Yes fans they need to hear Progeny. Nothing more. And, at the end of the day, it's still just my opinion, which I don't think holds more or less weight than anyone here whose knowledgable enough (and there are plenty, and as I've said before, some who are clearly more so than I).

    I never think about anything beyond informing...and contextualizing. And my real purpose in citing current Yes in the Progeny review was not to protect anyone...more just to point out just how great Progeny is and, through comparison, why. I think what's happened here is criticism of current Yes has been taken as the primary raison d'être of the article, when it's really a celebration of Progeny that is the intent.

    And,of course, if it is indeed, being perceived that way, I accept full responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by proggy_jazzer View Post
    As always, thanks for your thorough and well-written review.
    Honestly,it's my pleasure. Thanka for reading!

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    On this topic you can't win. No matter how obvious your observations are to most reasonable people.
    Thanks....but truly, I'm surprised that things haven't gotten more, um, ugly here. I was expecting to be seriously torched where, at best, I feel like I've been just the slightest bit singed

    So point taken and thanks, but it's all good. I think this is one of the most respectful discussions about the pros and cons of Yes at various points in its career that I've seen here....and, again, I'm grateful for folks keeping it that way. Because, as I've said, at the end of the day it brings me zero joy to criticize a band that was, at one time, one of my biggest heroes.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    But...I'm still willing to give a semi-unbiased ear to whatever they might do next in the studio (if anything).
    As do I. When image my reviewer hat on, I try to approach everything with an unbiased ear...so I've tried to do that with any new music period.

    I did it with Yes' last two records and all of them, which I still own (except for the last two, which I got rid of). While admittedly I can't help bu the a little sceptical after a run of inconsistent albums,I still go into new Yes albums with the hopes of a turnaround.

    But it's getting harder and harder, I will say that

    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    Part of my response comes from fatigue regarding Yes threads in general on PE. I wish it were possible to talk about Yes without having things eventually devolve into a debate about whether Yes is still valid, should continue, or give up and go away. But that is my own baggage coming to the table and...well, like I said, I'd promised myself a while ago that I'd just stop even posting about Yes on PE and I broke my own rule here

    In short...it's all good
    Good to hear. I always enjoy your posts too, btw.

  22. #72
    E
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    I dunno. I don't need an artist to constantly improve upon their classics - especially when they have 4-5 classics. Just give me something that's enjoyable to listen to. Yes did that with Fly from Here, IMO, but failed miserably with Heaven & Earth. Hopefully Chris Squire completely recovers and they bounce back with a new one. If not, then there's a veritable plethora of other music out there that I still don't have time to listen to.
    As I've already said, I don't expect artists to constantly break new ground - my thing about evolutionary bs revolutionary albums. And if Yes were to release nothing but evolutionary albums for the rest of its career I'd be happy...if they had any passion, any real feeling that they were working hard at it. But the recent shows I've seen/heard courtesy of their live albums ? It's not about breaking ground. It's about playing with commitment, with some real sense that they're trying to play the material freshly every night. That's what struck me with Progeny: every night felt like they were playing these songs for the first time. Now, they absolutely feel like they've been playing some of them for the decades they have...which means they're uninspiring, the opposite of exciting and exhilarating. All I'm looking for is some heart, some soul, some fire. If they could pull that off I'd be a happy guy. After all, that's exactly the feeling I get from listening (and,once, seeing) the current trio version of VdGG...irrespective of what folks think of their recent albums, I think it would be hard for anyone who has heard or seen them in a live context not to feel that they were going for it from the the first note to the last.

    Cheers,
    John

  23. #73
    Member Brian Griffin's Avatar
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    I'm going to drop out of this I think, as I've said my peace and made my feelings known but I'd just like to add a final point of reference

    Since we were initially speaking on live performances, I'm "lucky" to be old enough to have seen the following big whatevers in their 70's glory

    Yes
    Genesis
    Pink Floyd
    Tull
    ELP
    Nektar
    Strawbs

    I've seen all of these acts multiple times since the 1990's, most times in seats I'd never have dreamed of having back then

    None of them are as raw, high energy, experimental, etc, etc, etc as they were for a variety of reasons

    That said, I'd stack up Yes in comparison of their new to old shows vs any of them

    Try watching the Paris highlights from the recent Tull Minstrel release and then watch a recent show of theirs

    Again, still happy these acts are all still waving the flag and playing the old songs

    BG
    "When Yes appeared on stage, it was like, the gods appearing from the heavens, deigning to play in front of the people."

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Griffin View Post
    I'm going to drop out of this I think, as I've said my peace and made my feelings known but I'd just like to add a final point of reference

    Since we were initially speaking on live performances, I'm "lucky" to be old enough to have seen the following big whatevers in their 70's glory

    Yes
    Genesis
    Pink Floyd
    Tull
    ELP
    Nektar
    Strawbs

    I've seen all of these acts multiple times since the 1990's, most times in seats I'd never have dreamed of having back then

    None of them are as raw, high energy, experimental, etc, etc, etc as they were for a variety of reasons

    That said, I'd stack up Yes in comparison of their new to old shows vs any of them

    Try watching the Paris highlights from the recent Tull Minstrel release and then watch a recent show of theirs

    Again, still happy these acts are all still waving the flag and playing the old songs

    BG
    Id not argue with any you cite here except that Ian Anderson is still playing flute as well or better than ever. That does not, of course, make the shows great....just saying his issue isn't age...he blew his voice, otherwise I'm quite certain he'd be as good as he ever was.

    But the groups you cite (all of who, except Nektar, I saw back in the day too) and would agree with your assessment of later performances. But I've cited others who are as full of fire as they ever were. So while Yes isn't the only one suffering from this problem, they're the only one who just released a live box from their golden years that places their current performances in sharp contrast .

    If we were talking about an ELP review of the High Voltage set, you'd be seeing me say some of the same things

    But, like you, I think I've said all i can say about my feelings, and once again appreciate everyone's civility. Honestly, I thought I was walking into a minefield.

    So, instead, let's just revel in Progeny...a box that is a reminder of what a force Yes really was back in the day.

  25. #75
    Member Jay.Dee's Avatar
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    Well, for me the Keys to Ascension studio material was as good as their 70s classic output. I cannot say the same about the modern productions of Van der Graaf Generator or King Crimson, probably because the bar was set much higher. And as far as touring goes YES with Rick Wakeman were no slouches in the 00s, no worse than the contemporary editions of VdGG or KC.

    Of course it was ten years ago and recent re-configurations created a somewhat patchy mixture of old and new. However, given the health and age of the remaining classic members, a future touring lineup may look like this: Davison, Rabin, Downes, Sherwood and Schellen. I bet that such a configuration would be no worse than, say, the Flower Kings or Spock's Beard, both highly regarded by John, especially when playing the best stuff from the albums they were involved in as musicians or composers. And I am sure they would play this material with commitment.

    I have always wondered why YES keep recording modern sounding stuff and then do not tour it. Probably because older members have not been convinced about its value and appeal. Well, I am not convinced either, but for lots of fans of "90125", "BG", "ABWH", "Union", "Talk", "OYE", "Ladder", "FFH" and "H&E" it could be a real treat to hear the best picks from these albums, plus a song or two off "Tormato" or "Drama" to please older followers. I am sure it would sound fresher than their recent attempts of recreating their 70s classics in entirety.
    Last edited by Jay.Dee; 06-03-2015 at 01:51 PM.

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