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Thread: Norway to Turn Off FM Radio in 2017

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    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    Norway to Turn Off FM Radio in 2017

    http://gizmodo.com/norway-will-be-th...paign=mondayAM

    I'm not so sure about this working in the US or Canuckistan. North America is too damn big for one thing, way too many places where you just don't get a digital signal, especially in the West. Most cars don't have bluetooth available either.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

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    This was discussed on local radio here this morning.

    The consensus among the commentators seemed to be that neither FM nor AM radio was likely to disappear in Australia any time soon, though the things people listen to on it may change. Australia has the same issues as the US, i.e. large areas with low population density, but even more so - we are more comparable with Canada. Digital provides a clearer signal if you can receive it, but that's really only important for music - it's not a big deal when listening to speech. Radio stations here aren't just suppliers of background music - apart from the obvious (news bulletins, sports broadcasts, talkback) they are also essential suppliers of warnings and information on bushfires, cyclones, floods or any other emergency situation.

    Going completely to digital may be appropriate for Norway, though frankly I'm surprised, because although the Scandinavian countries are part of Europe they are in some ways more like Australia in that there are large areas that are very sparsely populated.

    ----------------------------

    As an aside, I'm starting to get irritated by the public misuse of the term "radio". I'd rather have it reserved for a service that is actually provided via radio waves. Live365 music streaming stations are NOT radio stations. The signal reaches me through wires and cables, not through the air.

  3. #3
    To put it mildly: this "decision" is dick. And it was "decided" over most Norwegian consumers' heads completely and without any possibility of formal dissent whatsoever - and without practical, pragmatic or logistic incitament altogether. In praise of capital markets and "development".

    Dick.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

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    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    ----------------------------

    As an aside, I'm starting to get irritated by the public misuse of the term "radio". I'd rather have it reserved for a service that is actually provided via radio waves. Live365 music streaming stations are NOT radio stations. The signal reaches me through wires and cables, not through the air.
    Agreed. I'd put satellite (Sirius/XM) in the "not radio stations" category, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    To put it mildly: this "decision" is dick. And it was "decided" over most Norwegian consumers' heads completely and without any possibility of formal dissent whatsoever - and without practical, pragmatic or logistic incitament altogether. In praise of capital markets and "development".

    Dick.
    So, just another typical radio decision, then.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    So, just another typical radio decision, then.
    Not really; not here, anyway. And listeners were never consulted either, to put it like that. I myself have practically quit listening to radio since they signalled the final (ensuing) abandoning of the FM net about five years back. And I'm not jumping back aboard now.
    Last edited by Scrotum Scissor; 04-21-2015 at 01:26 PM.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
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    All Things Must Pass spellbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerol
    I'm not so sure about this working in the US or Canuckistan. North America is too damn big for one thing, way too many places where you just don't get a digital signal, especially in the West. Most cars don't have bluetooth available either.
    All these things are true. I live in the West. I don't have bluetooth. My town has no fiber optic cable. I have only heard satellite radio once, to my knowledge. In a restaurant in another town. This could be a good thing, or a bad thing, but it's not an advanced thing.

    A better idea would be to improve FM radio here in the States. It's getting to be worse than AM radio was when I was a kid. I can't even stand to hear the DJs (or the imported disembodied voices that took their place) speak between songs. They're so loud and greedy and ignorant. Even station IDs have become intolerably stupid and childish. I spend much of the time in my car pushing preset buttons trying to find anyone who isn't talking (NPR excepted, but you have to be in the mood for that), and the rest with the volume all the way down because the shouting is omnipresent on all radio stations at once. Radio doesn't work well when you are far from the transmitter or the signal is blocked by mountains, which is true of much of Nevada. In the interior of this state, cell phones don't get a signal.

    Gone are the days when FM DJs seemed to be stoned and spoke in calm, relaxed voices. And when they had more than a handful of records to play.

    And get off my lawn!

    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116
    Radio stations here aren't just suppliers of background music - apart from the obvious (news bulletins, sports broadcasts, talkback) they are also essential suppliers of warnings and information on bushfires, cyclones, floods or any other emergency situation.
    That is true where I live, too.
    We're trying to build a monument to show that we were here
    It won't be visible through the air
    And there won't be any shade to cool the monument to prove that we were here. - Gene Parsons, 1973

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    Member Lopez's Avatar
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    Was a time when FM radio was something special, because cars and many inexpensive radios were AM only. FM was the home of "fine music" or stoned DJs (as mentioned above) playing side-long cuts. You went to FM to hear the "underground" music and to get away from the 90-minute rotation of the top 30 or 40 and the appliance store ads. Over the years FM became AM. There's no difference now; both bands have screaming DJs and Toyota ads. So, yeah, I'm with you, Spellbound. Don't get rid of FM; improve it.
    Lou

    Looking forward to my day in court.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    To put it mildly: this "decision" is dick. And it was "decided" over most Norwegian consumers' heads completely and without any possibility of formal dissent whatsoever - and without practical, pragmatic or logistic incitament altogether. In praise of capital markets and "development".

    Dick.
    This is probably coming in Denmark too.
    First they compressed the signal (with live classical music), so if you were so smart in the 80'ties to record the broadcast you have something unique in comparison. Now they want a lot of channels broadcasting insignificant rubbish, so they are afraid they will lack bandwith - so the quality sound (or what's left of it) has to go.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    Going completely to digital may be appropriate for Norway, though frankly I'm surprised, because although the Scandinavian countries are part of Europe they are in some ways more like Australia in that there are large areas that are very sparsely populated.
    True, but to have done a tremendous job at implementing infrastructure throughout the country ... sometimes in the least likely of places, both geographically and population. Unlike Finland, where the population is largely entered around three main cities, Norway's population of five million (give or take) really is spread across the country. I did a trip from Bergen to Stavanger over two days by boat 2008 as a delegate of the Jazz Norway in a Nutshell programme (now considerably smaller), which was normally based in Bergen and its Natt Jazz festival but because Stavanger was 2008 European Capital of Culture, they extended the length of the event and took us there also. Along with a beautiful trip along a drop-dead gorgeous coastline, it became so clear just how spread out the population is, with tiny towns all along the coast.

    When you consider Oslo is its largest city at around half a million, and Bergen the second at about a quarter million, it puts it all into perspective. But the infrastructure is truly amazing. I can't recall the number of tunnels through mountains that you pass through in the roughly one-hour drive from Bsrgen to Voss, which we did with JNiaN another year, but it's some crazy number like 37. And the country has managed to ensure that services they deem essential, including Health care, Education, cellular networks, fibre optics, etc is quite astounding.

    Yes, they have oil money...but they sure have spent it wisely.

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    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    And the country has managed to ensure that services they deem essential, including Health care, Education, cellular networks, fibre optics, etc is quite astounding.

    Yes, they have oil money...but they sure have spent it wisely.
    Wow. What a crazy idea.
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    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    I have no idea what FM radio is like in Europe. But I can't see lamenting the passing of FM here in the Puget Sound/British Columbia area. Its been in its death rattle for over a decade now. How many classic rock stations does one region need? They rarely play music I want to hear. Yeah, I wished it were the good old days, but I'm afraid that ship has already sailed.

  12. #12
    That such a thing could come to pass in the egalitarian paradise of Norswedawegia is shocking and unthinkable!


    Seriously, that's nuts. My car isn't even new enough to have an aux in jack on it. If the radio went off the air how would I hear Foghat and Skynyrd for the 18 billionth time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by trurl View Post

    Seriously, that's nuts. My car isn't even new enough to have an aux in jack on it. If the radio went off the air how would I hear Foghat and Skynyrd for the 18 billionth time?
    I believe you may have just nailed the reason Norway is turning off FM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    the infrastructure is truly amazing. I can't recall the number of tunnels through mountains that you pass through in the roughly one-hour drive from Bsrgen to Voss, which we did with JNiaN another year, but it's some crazy number like 37.
    I'm from Bergen myself (lived there for the first 30 years of my life), and I can honestly tell you that you still haven't seen anything until you drive through the Hardanger region. Those are intimate fjord terrains sporting narrow pathways, ghastly climbs, incredible drop views, ferry rides, tiny and lengthy tunnels etc. If you go through Norheimsund, Eidfjord, Utne and Odda you'll be passing orchard lands of fruit acres by golden lakesides - and no, these are not from Genesis lyrics.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
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    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Oddly enough, The Netherlands chose to take off the hertzian airwaves their TV a few years back (they went TNT and I suppose that most everyone has cable distribution). They didn't touch the radios though, because that's one of the main adds/commercial channels

    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    Going completely to digital may be appropriate for Norway, though frankly I'm surprised, because although the Scandinavian countries are part of Europe they are in some ways more like Australia in that there are large areas that are very sparsely populated.
    yeah, but 90% of Australia's geography is flat enough not to be an obstacle for good reception... and the mountainous regions of are close to where the majority of the population is. Norway, British Columbia (to mention a further post) and NZ's south islands are a totally different ballgame

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    To put it mildly: this "decision" is dick. And it was "decided" over most Norwegian consumers' heads completely and without any possibility of formal dissent whatsoever - and without practical, pragmatic or logistic incitament altogether. In praise of capital markets and "development".

    Dick.
    This is so odd a decision in a land that seems to have near-zero financial difficulties - though I'd say low oil prices are lightning orange alarm sirens

    2017 is still two years away, so I suspect that the decision can still be overturned, given public militancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by spellbound View Post
    A better idea would be to improve FM radio here in the States. It's getting to be worse than AM radio was when I was a kid. I can't even stand to hear the DJs (or the imported disembodied voices that took their place) speak between songs. They're so loud and greedy and ignorant. Even station IDs have become intolerably stupid and childish. I spend much of the time in my car pushing preset buttons trying to find anyone who isn't talking (NPR excepted, but you have to be in the mood for that), and the rest with the volume all the way down because the shouting is omnipresent on all radio stations at once. Radio doesn't work well when you are far from the transmitter or the signal is blocked by mountains, which is true of much of Nevada. In the interior of this state, cell phones don't get a signal.

    Gone are the days when FM DJs seemed to be stoned and spoke in calm, relaxed voices. And when they had more than a handful of records to play.
    You should hear Dutch radios. All their DJs sound like they're on speed and the commercials actually go into sixth gear in that dept. Absolutely intolerable
    and there is no escaping the utter noise and stupidity , cos its totally widespread over all the spectrum (I haven't even found a classical radio in NL >> that's a usual refuge for me, when tired of dumb AM or FM attacks). The only station I found different was a Rotterdam local station (in Ouderhijn or something >> Renate might just know more of that, she's in the area).

    But already by the late 70's, much of Toronto's FM channel was already dumb-downed. Whatever few correct FM stations there were at evening time, they were near intolerable idiocy during daytime. CHUM-FM (104.1), CILQ (107.1) or CFNY (102.1) . They were like WKRP in Cincinati: noisy/speedy like Dr Johnny Fever in daytime and cool & relaxed like Venus Flytrap in the evening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
    Was a time when FM radio was something special, because cars and many inexpensive radios were AM only. FM was the home of "fine music" or stoned DJs (as mentioned above) playing side-long cuts. You went to FM to hear the "underground" music and to get away from the 90-minute rotation of the top 30 or 40 and the appliance store ads. Over the years FM became AM. There's no difference now; both bands have screaming DJs and Toyota ads. So, yeah, I'm with you, Spellbound. Don't get rid of FM; improve it.


    My first cars had three selections for AM and three for FM, and I had wished for all FM then

    nowadays, my Saab has six AM (or MW as they call it in Europe), and 24 FM memories, and that's 4 times what I need. I sometimes need to catch some out-of-NL (Belg, Fr ou UK) stations on AM, so I use AM more than FM in the NL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    This is probably coming in Denmark too.
    First they compressed the signal (with live classical music), so if you were so smart in the 80'ties to record the broadcast you have something unique in comparison. Now they want a lot of channels broadcasting insignificant rubbish, so they are afraid they will lack bandwith - so the quality sound (or what's left of it) has to go.
    I can't imagine this Norway thing happening in Belgium (though most of it is rubbish as well), because there are major fights for airwave space on both bandwidths, and this has taken on a North/South twist (read Flemish/Walloon, with Brussels -mostly french-speaking - stuck in the middle of Flanders). ctually I ind the state-owned radios (in both languages) much above the average, compared with the private garbage stations. Well, the best is the Université Libre De Bruxelles (called Radio Campus, like all Uni radios), just across the parc from my place, but catching them across town is difficult

    So yes, compressing and stopping the bleeding (radios accidently appearing in different spaces where they're not supposed to be) is an issue here as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    True, but to have done a tremendous job at implementing infrastructure throughout the country ... sometimes in the least likely of places, both geographically and population. Unlike Finland, where the population is largely entered around three main cities, Norway's population of five million (give or take) really is spread across the country.

    Yes, they have oil money...but they sure have spent it wisely.
    A big difference as well is that 95% of Finland is flatter than The Netherlands... sure they managed to "annex" a few Km² in the Norwegian/Swedish mountains to have someting above 300m altitude

    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    I have no idea what FM radio is like in Europe. But I can't see lamenting the passing of FM here in the Puget Sound/British Columbia area. Its been in its death rattle for over a decade now. How many classic rock stations does one region need? They rarely play music I want to hear. Yeah, I wished it were the good old days, but I'm afraid that ship has already sailed.
    if memory serves, Puget Sound is between Vancouver and Seattle, right?? So you shouldn't have a problem like Norway's really deep canyon-like fjords in that region (I can see that being more of a problem near Alaska)... Believe me, it's when the "airwave silence" is very present that you'd miss dumb classic radio were more around.
    Last edited by Trane; 04-22-2015 at 04:34 AM.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

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    I think some people here are confusing two issues. The issue of whether there should be an AM and an FM radio service is quite separate from the quality of what is currently broadcast on that service.

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    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    The issue of whether there should be an AM and an FM radio service is quite separate from the quality of what is currently broadcast on that service.
    Is it?
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
    Was a time when FM radio was something special, because cars and many inexpensive radios were AM only. FM was the home of "fine music" or stoned DJs (as mentioned above) playing side-long cuts. You went to FM to hear the "underground" music and to get away from the 90-minute rotation of the top 30 or 40 and the appliance store ads. Over the years FM became AM. There's no difference now; both bands have screaming DJs and Toyota ads. So, yeah, I'm with you, Spellbound. Don't get rid of FM; improve it.
    I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but if someone put together a narrative about how the owners of FM radio acted in collusion to make it so lame that people would pay for radio (i.e. Satellite radio) I would believe it.

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    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuz View Post
    I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but if someone put together a narrative about how the owners of FM radio acted in collusion to make it so lame that people would pay for radio (i.e. Satellite radio) I would believe it.
    Wouldn't surprise me at all.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

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    Pendulumswingingdoomsday Rune Blackwings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    True, but to have done a tremendous job at implementing infrastructure throughout the country ... sometimes in the least likely of places, both geographically and population. Unlike Finland, where the population is largely entered around three main cities, Norway's population of five million (give or take) really is spread across the country. I did a trip from Bergen to Stavanger over two days by boat 2008 as a delegate of the Jazz Norway in a Nutshell programme (now considerably smaller), which was normally based in Bergen and its Natt Jazz festival but because Stavanger was 2008 European Capital of Culture, they extended the length of the event and took us there also. Along with a beautiful trip along a drop-dead gorgeous coastline, it became so clear just how spread out the population is, with tiny towns all along the coast.

    When you consider Oslo is its largest city at around half a million, and Bergen the second at about a quarter million, it puts it all into perspective. But the infrastructure is truly amazing. I can't recall the number of tunnels through mountains that you pass through in the roughly one-hour drive from Bsrgen to Voss, which we did with JNiaN another year, but it's some crazy number like 37. And the country has managed to ensure that services they deem essential, including Health care, Education, cellular networks, fibre optics, etc is quite astounding.

    Yes, they have oil money...but they sure have spent it wisely.
    A lot of things overlooked when people compare the Scandinavian nations to the USA:

    1. Our Constitution provides for the States to have sovereign powers for the most part. For example, NJ has wildly different laws than states right next to it. You can sell fireworks and booze in Wal-Marts in Pennsylvania, but not in NJ, for example. And Delaware has no sales tax, but NJ has 7% sales tax except when it doesn't, in which case it is 3.5%. I do not think if you went from Telemark to Hordaland that you have that sort of thing, but I could be wrong. Where this is a problem is when people want to compare the USA to other nations and point at states that they feel are the extremes of what they are against and say "see? look at what we do in the USA" without recognizing that some states are actually more stringent on the issue than even Europe is. For example, anti-gun people will say "look! In the USA, people can walk around with guns hanging out" by pointing to PA, but totally ignoring that NJ will actually arrest people for having a gun in the car, even if it is totally legal, such as moving a gun from house A to house B (actual case) or having an unloaded 300 year old flintlock in the car (actual case). So, comparing the nation as a whole to any European nation, let alone Norway, is often erroneous because it is not taking the fact each state is free to make its own policies and laws with certain exceptions and even have their own constitutions by which to do this.

    2. America is bigger than Europe. NYC in fact has more people than Norway. A law that might be hunky dory to the less than 10 million in Norway might not flush with the 300+ million in the USA. It might not be viable in the USA either. And before you talk oil profits and how it would be great over here or that I am being defeating, keep in mind that the states are free to do that sort of thing-Alaska's oil profits, if I recall, are publicly distributed. They were also free to have universal health care in their states before the Affordable Health Care act and several, such as Massachusetts, did.

    3. European Nations such as Norway have a different history and mindset than the USA. Many are former or current monarchies where the USA is a former colony that got pissed off. Norway has a history of being the rope in the tug of war for power between Denmark and Sweden, running around at one point invading Ireland and Scotland as if they were the local Wal-Mart of gold and silver and having to personally deal with Nazi rule during WW2. The USA was not around for a good deal of this and was pretty isolated from the rest of it, but not from its own internal battles. The mindsets stem from these histories. Not putting either down, but it is silly to compare them and hard to understand the other's mindset when looking at what the other does because the backgrounds are different.

    I like Norwegians. I think they are some of the nicest people. But I don't think I want to live like they do and I know many of them would not like to live like me.
    "Alienated-so alien I go!"

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    Pendulumswingingdoomsday Rune Blackwings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    Wouldn't surprise me at all.
    Clear channel would fight that tooth and nail in the USA unless they nabbed a bunch of satellite radio stations
    "Alienated-so alien I go!"

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    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune Blackwings View Post
    Clear channel would fight that tooth and nail in the USA unless they nabbed a bunch of satellite radio stations
    I'm surprised that they haven't started a satellite network already.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

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    Pendulumswingingdoomsday Rune Blackwings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    I'm surprised that they haven't started a satellite network already.
    They are probably waiting until they can snatch the one in existence.
    "Alienated-so alien I go!"

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    Member Digital_Man's Avatar
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    It's a shame that in the US at least you have to pay for half way decent radio(ie Satellite radio). Even Satellite radio isn't perfect but it's a considerable improvement over FM radio(not that that's saying much).

  25. #25
    Good article from Huffington post.


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...n_7110782.html

    Last Thursday, Norway's Ministry of Culture announced that it would shut down traditional FM radio networks in favor of higher-quality digital broadcasts beginning in 2017. It is the first country to announce such plans.

    Don't expect the United States to follow suit -- at least, not anytime soon.

    Christina Dunbar-Hester, an assistant journalism professor at Rutgers University and author of Low Power to the People, a book about FM radio activism, told The Huffington Post that Norway is uniquely positioned to make the transition from traditional, analog FM broadcasts to digital ones.

    "Norway is sparsely populated, mountainous, and wealthy," she explained via email. "FM doesn't work as well with that terrain and is relatively expensive to operate to reach everywhere in the country, so the economic investment in switching standards might be an easier sell there."

    In the U.S., AM and FM radio reach 243 million people weekly. That's far more than in Norway, a country of roughly 5 million.

    Switching to digital may be a bit of a hassle because it requires new equipment, but there are benefits, like higher-quality audio and a greater number of available channels. In the U.S., certain broadcasters have used digital methods for years. It's called IBOC, meaning "in-band on-channel," though it's popularly known by the trademark HD Radio -- kind of like how you probably call every tissue you use a "Kleenex."

    Dennis Wharton, executive vice president of communications for the National Association of Broadcasters, told HuffPost that many major stations -- the giants like KIIS-FM in Los Angeles -- have transmitted in HD radio for about a decade. About 21 percent of all FM radio stations in the U.S. today transmit digitally, he said, and most new cars have the ability to receive HD radio.

    The problem is, powerful broadcasters and new stereo systems are only part of the conversation. Radio stations in small towns, for example, may still broadcast on analog FM -- precisely what Norway is phasing out -- and some people may not have the equipment to receive anything else, anyway.

    "We're talking about [areas] smaller than Peoria in Illinois," Wharton explained in a phone interview. Peoria's population is around 116,000 people.

    "These stations are actually operating on profit margins that are not very high," he continued. "To make an investment in digital radio... it's just a financial decision they can't maybe abide yet."

    To be fair, it's not totally out of the question. A very similar transition happened in the U.S. with the advent of digital television. As of 2009, all "full-power" television stations are required to broadcast digitally in the U.S. There are many benefits: Picture quality is higher, programming sounds better, more channels are available and companies can provide broadband to customers.

    The switch to digital radio in the U.S. would bring similar benefits, Wharton said, but there are bigger issues to tackle first.

    "It's just difficult to get public policymakers to support something like that unless everybody in various industries agrees," he said.

    Instead of fighting that battle, the National Association of Broadcasters is turning its attention elsewhere. Digital radio, for all its benefits, is not likely to be mandated anytime soon, and there's another battle for analog radio brewing in the 21st century. Wharton said he wants to get American cell phone carriers to enable analog FM chips that are already built into many smartphones -- including the iPhone 6 and Samsung Galaxy S5 -- but are turned off in phones that are sold in the U.S.

    "Wireless carriers block the activation of that device because they'd prefer you listen to streamed programming," Wharton said. "It helps them if you bump up against your data plan for the month."

    It's certainly true that wireless carriers capitalize on people who go over their data plans and that online listening has seen strong growth over the past couple of years. The FM chips in phones, which receive analog rather than digital broadcasts, would allow smartphone owners to listen to music or newscasts without using their data.

    The bottom line? In 2015, traditional radio is worth a bit more than you might expect, and it's probably not going anywhere.
    "Always ready with the ray of sunshine"

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