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Thread: That was then, this is now

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    ^^ I thought it was going to be about the band ABC.
    I was hoping! Beauty Stab is a great, great album.

  2. #27
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer View Post
    Listen to Live at Leeds. Then listen to Black Dog.
    yeah, I know what you're getting at... But Youung Man's Blues doesn't sound much like Black Dog, especially tht Daltry's voice sounds nothing like Percy's
    IMHO, anyways
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  3. #28
    I give you that Daltry's voice sounds nothing like Plant's screeching. Other than that, "Black Dog" is a remake of the Who's turn on "Young Man Blues."
    Cobra handling and cocaine use are a bad mix.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer View Post
    I give you that Daltry's voice sounds nothing like Plant's screeching. Other than that, "Black Dog" is a remake of the Who's turn on "Young Man Blues."
    Screeching? Methinks you're clearly revealing your bias.

  5. #30
    Well, and Pete plays nothing like Jimmy. And Moon sounds absolutely nothing like Bonham. Other than that, pretty close.

  6. #31
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchgx View Post
    Screeching? Methinks you're clearly revealing your bias.
    Quote Originally Posted by trurl View Post
    Well, and Pete plays nothing like Jimmy. And Moon sounds absolutely nothing like Bonham. Other than that, pretty close.
    Well if you're to compare the individual members by instruments, the only place where Zep wins is in the vocals dept. Though Daltrey was often good (even very good), he's nowhere near Percy's awesome range. Daltry needed Townsend and Entwistle on vocals as well. Plant didn't need anyone

    Moon was a much better and intuitive drummer than Bonham, Entwistle a much better bassist (and horn player) than JP Jones (who had the KBs to make up for) and Townsend a much better composer... and a fairly under-rated guitarist.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  8. #33
    I was a trueblood fan of both back in my mid-teens, but now I'll have to say that I'd take The Who on just about any day. Zep had some great individual tunes, but there were always stuff I didn't like at all on their albums - and those stolen blueses are dated at best and throwaway at worst. Even my fave Zep, HotH, comes across as flawed 'tho good. Who's Next, on the other hand, is one of *the* brilliant rock records of that and any era.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
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  9. #34
    On the whole I prefer The Who myself, but it's really apples and oranges.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchgx View Post
    Screeching? Methinks you're clearly revealing your bias.
    I make no secret of my bias: I do not like Led Zeppelin. The only song of theirs I like is "Immigrant Song."
    Cobra handling and cocaine use are a bad mix.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Well if you're to compare the individual members by instruments, the only place where Zep wins is in the vocals dept. Though Daltrey was often good (even very good), he's nowhere near Percy's awesome range. Daltry needed Townsend and Entwistle on vocals as well. Plant didn't need anyone
    Daltrey didn't need anyone either; the Who were doing more complex vocal things involving multiple singers.

    And if you think Daltrey "needed" anyone, I suggest you check out "Won't Get Fooled Again" one more time. That scream at the reentrance of the band is, to my mind, the ultimate rock and roll vocal.
    Cobra handling and cocaine use are a bad mix.

  12. #37
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturgeon's Lawyer View Post
    . That scream at the reentrance of the band is, to my mind, the ultimate rock and roll vocal.
    agreed
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Well if you're to compare the individual members by instruments, the only place where Zep wins is in the vocals dept. Though Daltrey was often good (even very good), he's nowhere near Percy's awesome range. Daltry needed Townsend and Entwistle on vocals as well. Plant didn't need anyone

    Moon was a much better and intuitive drummer than Bonham, Entwistle a much better bassist (and horn player) than JP Jones (who had the KBs to make up for) and Townsend a much better composer... and a fairly under-rated guitarist.
    Must be perspective: Moon just played all over the place, in total disregard with what Entwistle was doing on bass, just oppositte of Bonham who he and JPJ were right up each other's ass laying down a giant phat groove.....From my point of view, that just makes Moon an "overplaying drummer", but not a good drummer. Overplaying does not equal innovative in my opinion.....and JPJ has a way phatter groove than Entwistle...........As far as guitar, Page and Townshend are apples and oranges (Townshend was almost forced to play rhythm - see below) and so is vocals so those two categories arent applicable to each other

    For the record: The Who and Led Zeppelin are just oppositte. LZ had a tight grooving rhythm section that propped up an otherwise mediocre guitarist...On the othewr hand, The Who had a rhythm section that just thrashed away and was ready to fly apart at the seems if not for the guitarist (!) constantly laying down the One (the downbeat) of every bar

    EDIT: I'll be the first to admit that The Who's thrashy loose rhythm section nonsense is actually part of their charm, but if Keith Moon had tried to pull that overplaying-disregarding-everybody-else bullshit in one of my bands, I would fire him on the spot. Guys like Vinnie Caliutta know how to play a lot, groove, say something, and compliment what the other players are doing -- thats being "innovative" IMHO

    $.02
    Last edited by klothos; 04-04-2015 at 02:43 AM.

  14. #39
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    I really liked Moon's drumming. This comes from someone who is not a drummer person; I normally think drummers should be "seen but not heard", or, more accurately, heard but not noticed.

    The thing is, Keith moon was not a "timekeeper". On songs like "Happy Jack" and "I'm a Boy" the drums are not simply a canvas on which the music is painted, they are part of the painting. I think the drumming, more than anything else, is what gave The Who their distinctive sound - at least up to about the time of Who's Next, when Townshend was getting a bit more adventurous and synthesisers were becoming more prominent in their music.

  15. #40
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by trurl View Post
    On the whole I prefer The Who myself, but it's really apples and oranges.
    That's early Pink Floyd. Apples and oranges, I mean.

  17. #42

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    .........As far as guitar, Page and Townshend are apples and oranges (Townshend was almost forced to play rhythm - see below)

    EDIT: I'll be the first to admit that The Who's thrashy loose rhythm section nonsense is actually part of their charm, but if Keith Moon had tried to pull that overplaying-disregarding-everybody-else bullshit in one of my bands, I would fire him on the spot.

    Mmmmhhh!!!... Townsend's guitar solo are much under-rated IMHO. Many of them are actually interesting - at least on studio albums

    As for Moon the Loon being as much an asset as a liability in the band, it sure was the case. But the man "felt" the music, more than he "served" it

    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    I really liked Moon's drumming. This comes from someone who is not a drummer person; I normally think drummers should be "seen but not heard", or, more accurately, heard but not noticed.

    The thing is, Keith moon was not a "timekeeper". On songs like "Happy Jack" and "I'm a Boy" the drums are not simply a canvas on which the music is painted, they are part of the painting. I think the drumming, more than anything else, is what gave The Who their distinctive sound - at least up to about the time of Who's Next, when Townshend was getting a bit more adventurous and synthesisers were becoming more prominent in their music.
    Yup, The Who without The Loon was simply not cutting the mustard, and it is really too bad they tried to keep the thing alive.
    At least Zep understood that losing their drummer, they packed it in
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    Must be perspective: Moon just played all over the place, in total disregard with what Entwistle was doing on bass, just oppositte of Bonham who he and JPJ were right up each other's ass laying down a giant phat groove.....From my point of view, that just makes Moon an "overplaying drummer", but not a good drummer. Overplaying does not equal innovative in my opinion.....and JPJ has a way phatter groove than Entwistle...........As far as guitar, Page and Townshend are apples and oranges (Townshend was almost forced to play rhythm - see below) and so is vocals so those two categories arent applicable to each other

    For the record: The Who and Led Zeppelin are just oppositte. LZ had a tight grooving rhythm section that propped up an otherwise mediocre guitarist...On the othewr hand, The Who had a rhythm section that just thrashed away and was ready to fly apart at the seems if not for the guitarist (!) constantly laying down the One (the downbeat) of every bar

    EDIT: I'll be the first to admit that The Who's thrashy loose rhythm section nonsense is actually part of their charm, but if Keith Moon had tried to pull that overplaying-disregarding-everybody-else bullshit in one of my bands, I would fire him on the spot. Guys like Vinnie Caliutta know how to play a lot, groove, say something, and compliment what the other players are doing -- thats being "innovative" IMHO

    $.02
    A spot-on assessment IMHO.

  20. #45
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    I think Moon's "lead" drumming--inspired by Viv Prince--actually worked fairly well for The Who's three-piece progressive pop orientation, which, unlike LZ's blues-rock, didn't really require a pocket drummer. I saw an interview with Townshend a few years ago and he was not enamored of Moon's playing.
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  21. #46
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    Yup, The Who without The Loon was simply not cutting the mustard, and it is really too bad they tried to keep the thing alive.
    At least Zep understood that losing their drummer, they packed it in
    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    I think Moon's "lead" drumming--inspired by Viv Prince--actually worked fairly well for The Who's three-piece progressive pop orientation, which, unlike LZ's blues-rock, didn't really require a pocket drummer. I saw an interview with Townshend a few years ago and he was not enamored of Moon's playing.
    The Who just cant win with me ....Like I said, I do think their thrashy loose rhythm section was part of their charm. Certain songs - like "Won't Get Fooled Again" - would probably loose a lot of that edginess with a tighter rhythm section........and when Kenny Jones replaced Moon on "Face Dances", it was the most solid rhythm Ive heard from The Who -- but they lost "something" in the process - that "charm".

    They are just "Damned if They Do - Damned if they Don't" with me

  22. #47
    That's why I love Zak Starkey in the band- to me he rides the line between being an all out spaz ala Keith and being a solid drummer who holds down the backbeat really well.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    I think Moon's "lead" drumming--inspired by Viv Prince--actually worked fairly well for The Who's three-piece progressive pop orientation, which, unlike LZ's blues-rock, didn't really require a pocket drummer. I saw an interview with Townshend a few years ago and he was not enamored of Moon's playing.
    In his book Who I Am, Townsend has very mixed feelings about Loon, but not really about his drumming... it's more about his antics (both on and off stage).
    He still resents his earloss due to Moon's abuse of pyrotechnics on stage, for ex.

    Indeed, Moon's drummng can almost be called "lead druming" , wheras Bonham's can be called "Led druming"
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  24. #49
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    I think Moon's "lead" drumming--inspired by Viv Prince--actually worked fairly well for The Who's three-piece progressive pop orientation, which, unlike LZ's blues-rock, didn't really require a pocket drummer. I saw an interview with Townshend a few years ago and he was not enamored of Moon's playing.
    When a musician plays "lead" in any band, its to compliment the song.......what comes across on a great many Who songs is Moon just wanting to compliment himself instead of complimenting the piece as a whole....Calling it "lead drumming" does not change this facet

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    When a musician plays "lead" in any band, its to compliment the song.......what comes across on a great many Who songs is Moon just wanting to compliment himself instead of complimenting the piece as a whole....Calling it "lead drumming" does not change this facet
    And yet:

    "Drum solos are boring!" -- Keith Moon
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

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