Why did YES not become "The Grateful Dead"?

[Skullhead]

With all the craze about the final Grateful Dead shows in Chicago... 300K tickets sold in hours etc.
this reminded me of what I always though was a misdirection of hippie consciousness.

For some reason, the huge "Dead Head" following has become a timeless institution of all things hippie and 60's 70's ethos.

Should YES have been the more viable vehicle for hippie culture?

YES is much more creative and forward thinking both musically and lyrically. Jon's spiritual lyrics, vegetarianism etc.. seems a better fit for trippy hippies, deeper lyrics, much superior musicianship and creative songwriting. The Dead guys are no slouches, but I think there is so much more in YES music than in Grateful Dead music.

I think Jon would have been a much better leader of the "Heads" than Jerry who died a junkie heroin addict. Jon also has embraced world music and YES could have incorporated more of that into their music with Jon's guidance.

YES was still fully intact with original members into the 90's and 2000's. After Jerry passed, I thought YES would have been a more appropriate band to follow than Phish for example.

I think YES could have inherited the tie die shirts, vegan food stands, incense and dreadlocks that are still in vouge with the young hippie kids. There will be thousands of kids in Chicago who never saw the dead, many born after Jerry died.

While there are certainly a lot of cross over fans, I just wonder why a great band like YES didn't inherit the Deadheads as they might have.

Any thoughts?

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

can you imagine those Brit Symph guys improvising loosely, a.k.a. jamming?

I'm not a fan of either band (I prefer my music somewhere between the two styles) but I know this much; one likes to write every note out and try to stick to that script whenever possible and the other plays in the moment at any given turn, feeding off each others vibe.

diametrically opposing M.O.s

[Skullhead]

can you imagine those Brit Symph guys improvising loosely, a.k.a. jamming?

I'm not a fan of either band, but I know this much; one likes to write every note out and try to stick to that script whenever possible and the other plays in the moment at any given turn, feeding off each others vibe.

diametrically opposing M.O.s

I don't think they are diametrically opposed. The Grateful Dead was embracing Prog Rock at the same time YES was. Just listen to "Blues for Allah" It's very prog and very structured. It's also a very fine album. To suggest the Grateful Dead was just a loose jam band means you haven't listened to much of their music.

Both bands embraced endless touring schedules to bring the music out to the fans and people.

YES did a lot of improvising during their live shows. Just listen to how different their live shows were than their studio offerings on YESSONGS. Perpetual Change is a very danceable hippie sounding anthem. Heart of the Sunrise is a perfect trancy hippie epic that would have all the acid heads seeing God while peaking on their enlightenments.

I have always seen a lot of tie die shirts at YES concerts over the years. A lot of Dead Heads are also YES Fans.. but it seems like it should have been more YES fans than DEADHEADS.

There was a time in the 70's where YES was a much bigger draw than then Grateful Dead. This all changed obviously... but the point remains, could YES have captured this audience? and why didn't they?

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

Just listen to how different their live shows were than their studio offerings on YESSONGS.

hmm... were you intentionally making my point for me there?

now go and listen to the tour for Blues For Allah and see who was the loose, jamming band of the two

[Rufus]

Why can't the Greatful Dead sell a bean outside of the USA ?

[arabicadabra]

Because self-centered, musically ignorant stoner hippies are a higher life form than progfans....

[Scrotum Scissor]

Why can't the Greatful Dead sell a bean outside of the USA ?

Why are most of the bands you yourself adhere to touring shopping malls, cheap hotel bars and public lavatories - sometimes also in Europe? Please answer the fucking question this time, and while you're at it add an argument as to why the "sales" are the important aspects of musical quality - as this is a music discussion forum.

[Scrotum Scissor]

YES is much more creative and forward thinking both musically and lyrically. Jon's spiritual lyrics, vegetarianism etc.. seems a better fit for trippy hippies, deeper lyrics, much superior musicianship and creative songwriting. The Dead guys are no slouches, but I think there is so much more in YES music than in Grateful Dead music.

No. And I could name you some 100s of rock bands whose music is and was tenfolds more creative, adventurous and challenging than Yes but who don't even want to play cruiseships nowadays. Having been a huge Yes fan myself, it's plain pitiful to note what eventually became of them and the utter lack of artistic self-insight. At least the Dead were honest and outspoken of their musical limitations and the true nature of the conceptual approach to their medium of choice.

[Facelift]

Why can't the Greatful Dead sell a bean outside of the USA ?

1) Their music is particularly "American"
2) I'm not sure this is even true.

As to why the Yes never became the Dead... I don't know - maybe because in even 40+ years of Yes, you still don't can't get the amount of variation between concerts that you got over just one or two tours performed by the Grateful Dead. They were more versatile musicians and inspired hordes of tour-followers precisely because they were giving them a different experience every night. That's partially why Phish still gets large draws. Yes didn't do that, at any phase of their career. A better comp for Yes might be Rush; as in, why couldn't Yes maintain an audience as large as Rush's over the last 20 years, and why wasn't it Yes that had large late-career recognition and belated acceptance in the music mags, R&RHOF and whatnot? I don't have an exact answer for that, but I can say that knowing who is in the band at any given moment usually corresponds with the type of bands that get fierce fan loyalty. From a personnel standpoint, Yes has been quite a mess over the last 20 years.

[JJ88]

It seems to me, they were regaining ground around 2003/4. The 'classic' line-up playing arenas again (Madison Square Garden, Wembley), and with their 70s sound for the most part- it could have happened then. Since that, a lot of water has gone under the bridge, unfortunately.

[Jay.Dee]

For some reason, the huge "Dead Head" following has become a timeless institution of all things hippie and 60's 70's ethos. Should YES have been the more viable vehicle for hippie culture? [...] After Jerry passed, I thought YES would have been a more appropriate band to follow than Phish for example.

Shortly after Jerry's death in August 1995 both YES and Phish were positioned equally well to attract the orphaned Deadhead fanbase to their gigs:

Phish, Dec 1995, live at the NYC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnnn0dp100U
YES, Mar 1996, live at San Luis Obispo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuJ76hpCj5I

However, two years later there was really no argument about which band to follow...

Phish, Nov 1997, live at Winston-Salem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX5kjh05DCw
YES, Mar 1998, live at Budapest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VofvYB2aEXA

[Skullhead]

No. And I could name you some 100s of rock bands whose music is and was tenfolds more creative, adventurous and challenging than Yes but who don't even want to play cruiseships nowadays. Having been a huge Yes fan myself, it's plain pitiful to note what eventually became of them and the utter lack of artistic self-insight. At least the Dead were honest and outspoken of their musical limitations and the true nature of the conceptual approach to their medium of choice.

Not really my point about what happened to YES recently, but more a discussion about how the huge hippie movement back in the late 70's to mid 80s latched onto the Grateful Dead and not YES. I can't think of another band that would have been more appropriate had Anderson stayed at the helm. He seems to epitomize hippie ethos. Diet, trippy spirituality, meditating in a tent before shows, very cosmic, thought provoking, and the expansive music... the Roger Dean artwork, it just seems to me that YES should have been the band the hippies followed more than the Grateful Dead. I like the Grateful Dead, but just don't really understand the mass hysteria about them. That scene could have been any number of bands, but YES just seems the best fit. Better than the Dead.

[Skullhead]

It seems to me, they were regaining ground around 2003/4. The 'classic' line-up playing arenas again (Madison Square Garden, Wembley), and with their 70s sound for the most part- it could have happened then. Since that, a lot of water has gone under the bridge, unfortunately.

I thought the same thing when they were doing those reunion shows. It was such truly inspired hippie music from the 70's.
I remember YES playing the Revealing Science of God live and they just killed it and put the whole house in a trance. Very powerful, and I think the hippies would have just eaten that stuff up.

Is it that vitally important that the hippie crowd get a more improvised set?
How does one explain Rocky Horror where the fans know every word of the film?... but still flock to midnight showings decades later?

[Scrotum Scissor]

I can't think of another band that would have been more appropriate had Anderson stayed at the helm. He seems to epitomize hippie ethos. Diet, trippy spirituality, meditating in a tent before shows, very cosmic, thought provoking, and the expansive music... the Roger Dean artwork, it just seems to me that YES should have been the band the hippies followed more than the Grateful Dead.

For the same reason that your average hippie wouldn't want to go anywhere near your average Yoga-obsessive herb-tea sipping actor's wife in Topanga; the scent of corporate fake and monetarily bestowed "lifestyle"-attitudes to personal liberations and alleged "spiritual awakenings". If Anderson hadn't made it in music, he'd still be having bacon and eggs, drinking ale and gaining weight while donning his dayjob as milk- or mailman up in Accrington.

[Skullhead]

Shortly after Jerry's death in August 1995 both YES and Phish were positioned equally well to attract the orphaned Deadhead fanbase to their gigs:

Phish, Dec 1995, live at the NYC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnnn0dp100U
YES, Mar 1996, live at San Luis Obispo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuJ76hpCj5I

However, two years later there was really no argument about what band to follow...

Phish, Nov 1997, live at Winston-Salem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX5kjh05DCw
YES, Mar 1998, live at Budapest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VofvYB2aEXA

Is it really just the herd mentality? One sheep makes a move and the rest follow for no apparent reason other than, that is what they do?

The Dead spin off bands do much better than YES spin offs. For instance, Melvin Seals sells out shows all over because he played Hammond in Jerry's side band? Ratdog, Phil and Friends and the tribute bands are endless... and Dark Star sells out nearly everywhere.

Phish to me seems to be more like Gentle Giant, talented but silly. YES takes the listener on such a more imaginative voyage. Isn't that what hippies want? I find Phish to be a big yawn.

[Jay.Dee]

Is it really just the herd mentality? One sheep makes a move and the rest follow for no apparent reason other than, that is what they do? The Dead spin off bands do much better than YES spin offs. [...]

Phish to me seems to be more like Gentle Giant, talented but silly. YES takes the listener on such a more imaginative voyage. Isn't that what hippies want? I find Phish to be a big yawn.

I cannot speak for all hippies, but it is true that I tend to prefer those big yawns and Gentle Giant's silliness over the imaginative voyages YES have been undertaking for the past three decades (Keys material excepted).

However, you cannot complain either, because despite the lack of substantial following YES-spinoff units match artistically the quality level of contemporary output of their mother band. Just listen to Circa, they are just as good as the modern YES and in the end it is the music that matters, isn't it?

[spacefreak]

As to why the Yes never became the Dead... .

Their music wasn't particularly "American". And true hippies don't go on cruises.

[flowerking]

I haven't seen this mentioned yet. One of the things the deadheads (and Phish fans) did was follow the band on tour to see several, maybe even dozens of shows. They did this not only because each show's solos would be different because every night would feature a different setlist. On some Phish tours, you wouldn't even see one song repeated between any two shows. Phish, back in the mid 90s, played something like 120 different songs during their tour. I don't think the Dead had quite the same range in their catalog but I'd be surprised if their tours didn't feature at least 60-80 different songs. If you followed Yes around on one of their tours, you would see practically the same setlist every night. True, some of the solos would differ, but not by a whole lot. With the Dead and Phish, you are guaranteed of getting fairly unique shows night after night.

[Oreb]

Why did YES not become "The Grateful Dead"?

Because they were good?

[happytheman]

I haven't seen this mentioned yet. One of the things the deadheads (and Phish fans) did was follow the band on tour to see several, maybe even dozens of shows. They did this not only because each show's solos would be different because every night would feature a different setlist. On some Phish tours, you wouldn't even see one song repeated between any two shows. Phish, back in the mid 90s, played something like 120 different songs during their tour. I don't think the Dead had quite the same range in their catalog but I'd be surprised if their tours didn't feature at least 60-80 different songs. If you followed Yes around on one of their tours, you would see practically the same setlist every night. True, some of the solos would differ, but not by a whole lot. With the Dead and Phish, you are guaranteed of getting fairly unique shows night after night.

I've long felt the same thing regarding Yes' setlist.. Given the amount of time they spent together.. they should have been able to change on a moments notice.. One night throw out the classic set list.. the next throw in Gates or Ritual.. then the following night one from each album etc.. Yes' became way too predictable..

[Facelift]

I haven't seen this mentioned yet. One of the things the deadheads (and Phish fans) did was follow the band on tour to see several, maybe even dozens of shows. They did this not only because each show's solos would be different because every night would feature a different setlist. On some Phish tours, you wouldn't even see one song repeated between any two shows. Phish, back in the mid 90s, played something like 120 different songs during their tour. I don't think the Dead have quiite the same range in their catalog but I'd be surprised if their tours didn't feature at least 60-80 different songs. If you followed Yes around on one of their tours, you would see practically the same setlist every night. True, some of the solos would differ, but not by a whole lot. With the Dead and Phish, you are guaranteed of getting fairly unique shows night after night.

I mentioned it earlier, and yes, I agree. Yes isn't the kind of band that inspired large numbers of people to follow them around on tour for weeks on end, because they did more or less the same show every night. I mean, there's a thread going on right now about a soon-to-be-released Yes box set of 7 shows from 1972, and you've got some people (myself included) who are already stating a preference for the 2-disc sampler, because they find 7 Yes shows from the same tour to be overkill.

[Watanabe]

They didn't become the Grateful Dead because they were a different band doing different things.

Basically you want things to be one way to conform to your own idea if hippie aesthetics and music, but in reality it's another way.

[notallwhowander]

So, um, it wasn't just about the music. The Grateful Dead came out of an honest-to-goodness counter-culture and community that grew up around San Francisco. And to say "came out of" isn't really right, because they never left it. They kept that community around them. Unlike many bands, they really helped to keep that community alive. A concert wasn't just the musicians playing a few sets for an appreciative audience, it was a happening, a gathering, an honest-to-goodness counter-culture living, breathing, making its way against the prevailing currents of the mainstream. It was where hippies could be fully hippies, and create a scene according to their sense of what it should be, with its own social mores, etc. The Grateful Dead were part of that, genuine members of that scene.

[time captain]

I write this as an avid fan of YES since 1973, and as a more recent Dead fan.
The Dead were a more "everyman" band. You could relate to the Dead as an average human who had a job, or went to school. There seemed no pretense to the Dead. their subject matter was everyman.
Most people can dance to the Dead .... a big factor. And as an old girlfriend once told me as to one of the main reasons she liked Nico and did not like Jon Anderson / Yes, was simple. She could sing along with Nico .
Most folks in the audience, whether musicians or not, know they could sing as well or better than Jerry, Bobby, Pig, Phil, Donna etc. And that may not be in the front of people's minds, but they know it and that simple fact makes the Dead easier to relate to.
Any time people have to look up from their place in life { beholding the sound & basic premise of YES } many of them will be put off. Especially in America. There is a certain snobbishness to many of the English bands, and Yes was certainly one of them.
I do not like these reasons , but there you are.
To sum up: most people can not easily sing or dance to YES. Their vibe asks you to rise above. Dead vibe & music is more everyman.

[time captain]

Also may I add: many, many people @ Dead shows [ especially in the 80s & beyond ] were there for the party. The Dead were associated in the press with the "hippie vibe" and that perception just grew & grew.