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Thread: The problem with prog vocals

  1. #1
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    The problem with prog vocals

    No. Not another pretentiousness thread.

    Im not talking about lyrics at all.

    I'm talking about the current state of recording vocals.
    I'm talking: why on the vintage lps it is very rare to have an lp where it is difficult to make out the vocals, but today's prog cds.....?

    For instance, just listened to Ignatus -Lights From The Deep cd. I cannot make out two thirds of what the vocalist is saying.

    There are many examples of this.
    When it is really dismaying, of course, is when you have something that is truely good, like Torre de Alchimista "same" which is COMPLETELY RUINED by the vocal mix.

    Do these bands even use studios?

    What are the differences in studio recording from vintage prog days & now? (Way I see it, it cant be that much down to this because, feck it all, when have you heard a current pop song where you cannot make out the lyrics? Never. If they can do it for pop, why not prog? Is it because prog is "thicker" and more difficult to make the vocals clear?)

    Are they recording vocals deeper into the mix that in the old days?



    Myself, I put little emphasis on vocals and lyrics in prog. But, for some reason I cannot explain, it truely bothers me when the vocal delivery or recording-of is botched up. I rather hear embarrassingly-juvenile lyrics properly recorded, than the best lyrics in the world done a disservice by having them on the final product as being bungled into something amorphous, un-distinct.

    Do today's bands not realize how important the mix of the vocals is?


    (Okay, Im not saying this fault lies with the "big" bands. It doesnt.)

  2. #2
    Perhaps less money and less time, to spend on the recording? With a lot of stuff going on in the same part of the sound-spectrum it might be pretty hard to get the vocals clear and understandable, while at the same time not drowning out some instrumentparts.

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    Yes, that's what I meant by "thickness". The busy-ness of the music. Sure that's a big problem, but it was surmounted in the 70s, but not somuch now.

    Could a big factor be that in the 70s, especially in UK where there were damn few private press (compared to US) the music (and, argueably, the production) had to go through a corporate "filter". It was all business then*, no backyard production. It was all regulated - just a few main studios and these were manned by the best studio men - but not necessarily the most up-to date technology: Abbey Road for instance wasn't as up-to date as ,say Trident, yet their recordings are uniformly excellent.

    Understand what I am saying?


    Way I understand it, nowadays bands can basically record on their own for under $1000.


    *Yes, it is true there were less distant "suits" pulling the strings then and more persons with basic love for the scene, but it WAS regulated all the same.
    Last edited by Jymbot; 12-16-2012 at 09:36 AM.

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    You hear all this about vintage sound but not much about vintage recording technique.

    Bands push vintage sound nowadays. (The oldsters also - Wakiepoo's "Retro" cds and Oldfield just saying he has had it with samplers and all that computer stuff.)
    But how many bands boast on their cd that their home studio recording was laid down ON TAPE, the best medium for sound?

    None.

    Because proper recording on tape is more labour-intensive and proper machines and 70's studio Neumann mikes/mixers, studio speakers, etc cost a hell of a lot more than downloaded freeware.

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    Are you being serious?

    I dont understand.

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    Member Yodelgoat's Avatar
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    I think you're right, the lack of a true producer, to remove "what shouldnt be there" could be a part of the problem. Producers generally keep things where they belong, in some cases telling the drummer to simplify, or the bass player to not wank over certain parts. His job is basically to shape music into something palpable. I recall hearing Alice Coopers first version of "Eighteen" and it was just a mess. By the time Ezrin got through with it, it was a pretty good song. He completely rearrainged it, as the original is almost unrecognizeable, versus the Love it to death version. Oh and someone totally boffed the greatest hits version, because they removed the cool basslines that actually made the song. (IMO)

    As a home recording enthusiast, I have to constantly "edit" what I'm doing, because as the producer, I shouldnt let slop through, I cant let melodies or lyrics get buried by other things. If the Guitarist is the producer, you're gonna hear more guitars, if the drummer is, your gonna hear more drums, if its the bassist - oh, wait Bassists are never let anywhere near a console....

    Probably why I have to do everything by myself. Not that for me it matters, But a producer is supposed to focus the music on the listeners perspective, and make the music as good as it can from that perspective. Prog musicians mostly dont use producers much anymore. Perhaps thats why you have observed the phenomenom you describe. You're hearing music produced from a musicians perspective and not a producer. I dont know if I'm right. but it could be part of the issue.

  7. #7
    It's really all in the engineering / mixing. It's not hard to get vocals to "cut through" if the engineer understands how to correctly apply eq notching which is essentially making room in the frequency spectrum for the vocals. Maybe the lack of this is totally a time related thing where the budgets are low and this is not done to the degree it needs to be. The secondary problem may be that the vocal tracks themselves were eq'd incorrectly. There are certain frequencies that will actually make vowels and consonants stand out more. If those frequencies are attenuated to allow for other instrumentation to cut through then intelligibility will suffer.
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    Traversing The Dream 100423's Avatar
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    Hmmm...
    There are lots of songs from the 'vintage' era in which I have no idea what the lyrics are in their entirety (unless I've read along with the lyrics sheet).
    Maybe it's a matter of taste in how loud they want the vocals?

  9. #9
    A sign of the times. For some reason, EVERYTHING needs to be up-front. Rarely do we hear true separation in a mix. This I find particularly puzzling, considering all the technology at hand and the history of great recording/mixing. For example, I listen to the mono "Revolver" and it sounds like stereo because so much care was put into keeping instruments and vocals from fighting with each other. Yet, today, we have all of the technology anyone could ever want and all we get is clutter at red levels.

  10. #10
    Mod or rocker? Mocker. Frumious B's Avatar
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    A big contemporary problem with recorded vocals across the spectrum of rock and popular music is software abuse, plain and simple. There's some new version of Wham's "Last Christmas" I keep hearing at the mall and the vocals are autotuned out the wazoo and sound totally stripped of air, breath and humanity. Contrast that with the George Michael vocal on the original which sounds like an actual performance by a living, breathing human. If you think this bane of existence is limited to the "mainstream" then try listening to the Squackett record where the vocals bear about as much resemblance to a vibrant, human performance as a McDonalds hamburger does to a steak.

    Another problem very specific to modern prog singers is that guys like Peter Gabriel, Jon Anderson and Peter Hammill had an eclectic range of influences across the spectrum of pop, jazz, folk, classical, church music and so forth. Contrast that with modern singers who sound like they have CD collections comprised entirely of Yes, Genesis, Rush and related music with maybe some Van Der Graaf Generator thrown in when it's time to get dark and edgy and it's pretty easy to figure out why so many of these vocalists are basically totally screwed before they even open their mouths. They have nothing that is their own to say, nothing to say that hasn't all ready been said better by someone else. No one is ever going to get to be the next Peter Gabriel or Jon Anderson by listening to Peter Gabriel and Jon Anderson. You can bank on that. It's an incestuous, dead end clusterfrak.
    Last edited by Frumious B; 12-16-2012 at 10:39 AM.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    A sign of the times. For some reason, EVERYTHING needs to be up-front. Rarely do we hear true separation in a mix. This I find particularly puzzling, considering all the technology at hand and the history of great recording/mixing. For example, I listen to the mono "Revolver" and it sounds like stereo because so much care was put into keeping instruments and vocals from fighting with each other. Yet, today, we have all of the technology anyone could ever want and all we get is clutter at red levels.
    I am constantly having this fight with bands I record. Everything doesnt need to be peaking at zero. Let the damn song breathe for crying out loud. : ))
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    Maybe it's the band. Who are "ignitus"? One of these bands that thinks that since they know how to boot up a computer and they own some software that they think they can "release" a CD? That's real issue today. Too much utter crap out there because of the tools available. Lyrics on new Rush and Yes albums are very clear!

  13. #13
    Tribesman sonic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frumious B View Post
    Contrast that with modern singers who sound like they have CD collections comprised entirely of Yes, Genesis, Rush and related music with maybe some Van Der Graaf Generator thrown in when it's time to get dark and edgy and it's pretty easy to figure out why so many of these vocalists are basically totally screwed before they even open their mouths.
    Agreed. Most recent 'Prog' bands sound like geeky fan boys attempting to emulate their heros. The problem is there isn't a good vocalist among them. Emulating famous vocalists is nothing new but prog doesn't seem to attract vocalists, so usually one of the instrumentalists ends of doing the singing to dismal effect — the Steve Howe effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbue View Post
    It's really all in the engineering / mixing. It's not hard to get vocals to "cut through" if the engineer understands how to correctly apply eq notching which is essentially making room in the frequency spectrum for the vocals. Maybe the lack of this is totally a time related thing where the budgets are low and this is not done to the degree it needs to be. The secondary problem may be that the vocal tracks themselves were eq'd incorrectly. There are certain frequencies that will actually make vowels and consonants stand out more. If those frequencies are attenuated to allow for other instrumentation to cut through then intelligibility will suffer.
    This is my take on it. I have a problem with alot of this in-your-face production that is being used today. Some call it i-pod production I think. It's made things jumbled, and sometimes unlistenable.

    Rick

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonic View Post
    Agreed. Most recent 'Prog' bands sound like geeky fan boys attempting to emulate their heros. The problem is there isn't a good vocalist among them. Emulating famous vocalists is nothing new but prog doesn't seem to attract vocalists, so usually one of the instrumentalists ends of doing the singing to dismal effect — the Steve Howe effect.
    How true. I noticed this very distinctly when I started getting back into prog music in the mid-90's. It's really a turn-off for me. And I've heard dog's that sound better than Howe singing. Howe has been a big part of Yes's style and sound instrumentally and writing, but I wish I'd never heard him attempt to sing.

    Rick

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Fracktured View Post
    This is my take on it. I have a problem with alot of this in-your-face production that is being used today. Some call it i-pod production I think. It's made things jumbled, and sometimes unlistenable.

    Rick
    Yeah it's a strange thing with all the loudness wars... EVERYTHING HAS TO BE IN YOUR FACE.... no depth or dynamics and the thing of it is when someone hears a well tracked, mixed and mastered tune their minds are blown as to how great it sounds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbue View Post
    Yeah it's a strange thing with all the loudness wars... EVERYTHING HAS TO BE IN YOUR FACE.... no depth or dynamics and the thing of it is when someone hears a well tracked, mixed and mastered tune their minds are blown as to how great it sounds.
    One of my favorite lines in rehearsal: spoken in a dim-sounding, cartooninsh British accent, "Can... OI... 'ave... evryfing... louder... than... evryfing... else?"

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by sonic View Post
    the Steve Howe effect.
    I've always regretted that beautiful "All's A Chord" was spoiled by his off-key singing. He'd better offer this song to JA.

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