FEATURED CD - Miles Davis : Bitches Brew

[No Pride]

Love it, but love the 65-68 band even more (to me, any modern jazz band worth it's salt has a bit of the 2nd Quintet in it).


Do not dig the 4cd box. What a mess! Thus, Teo gets massive credit putting it together.

Interesting to note the differences in guitar playing when Benson played with 2nd Quintet and when Johnny Mac played with the fusion band.

normally, in a jazz context, Benson smokes Johnny mac 365/24/7 and twice on Sundays, and then mops the floor with him.

But Benson would have been a poor choice for the fusion band. Johnny Mac is a much better choice for the type of music he was making with BB. Time to put away the D'Angelico and the clean tone. But BB was just the start of Miles experimental period.

Both the first and second quintet are my favorite Miles. As for Benson smoking McLaughlin, I can't agree or even compare; they're very different players. Benson did try to move out of his comfort zone and fit in with Miles' band on "Miles in the Sky"; gotta credit him for that. But McLaughlin was definitely the guitar player Miles had been looking for.

never saw such disrespect for McL!!
Though you're right, in a "pure jazz" context, I can think of better than him.... But Benson??

Never thought that much of Benson... I am not familiar with what he did before his CTI albums (his Columbia and A&M days >> always meant to explore, never got around to it), but personally, stuff like what's inside White rabbit, Blue Hrizon, Body Talk doesn't have that much good stuff... I'd say that around 50% in those CTI albums is insipid soft jazz (or a precursor of soft jazz)

Though I like some of George's CTI records to some extent, none of them really do him justice. I saw him live on 6 different nights (and heard 3 sets each of those nights) at Chicago's "Jazz Showcase" before he recorded "Masquerade" and became a pop star and let me tell you... he was BADASS! He had his signature licks, but every set, he played some fresh stuff that I'd never heard him play before or since. As far as the big box, archtop jazz guitar players go, he was one of the best. And not that chops are what makes a player great, but he had more chops than any of those other guys; Pass, Montgomery, Hall, Burrell, Farlow, Rainey, etc.

As for the "smooth jazz" thing, Benson and a few others like Grover Washington were doing that sort of thing long before it had that label, or the popularity it would achieve. He always had a little r&b in his thang... and he always sang one or two tunes on his albums. After a while, he capitalized on that aspect, but within the jazz world, he more than proved himself as a player to be reckoned with previously.

[N_Singh]

Though I like some of George's CTI records to some extent, none of them really do him justice. I saw him live on 6 different nights (and heard 3 sets each of those nights) at Chicago's "Jazz Showcase" before he recorded "Masquerade" and became a pop star and let me tell you... he was BADASS! He had his signature licks, but every set, he played some fresh stuff that I'd never heard him play before or since. As far as the big box, archtop jazz guitar players go, he was one of the best. And not that chops are what makes a player great, but he had more chops than any of those other guys; Pass, Montgomery, Hall, Burrell, Farlow, Rainey, etc.

As for the "smooth jazz" thing, Benson and a few others like Grover Washington were doing that sort of thing long before it had that label, or the popularity it would achieve. He always had a little r&b in his thang... and he always sang one or two tunes on his albums. After a while, he capitalized on that aspect, but within the jazz world, he more than proved himself as a player to be reckoned with previously.

Agree. His records don't do him justice. As a player, Benson was and remains the true heir to Charlie Christian and Wes. He is probably one of the most influential players in terms of technique, feel, groove, and vocabulary. Anyone can google "Benson style picking" to get one aspect of his influence.

[wideopenears]

I personally love a lot of those CTI Benson records, but esp. Bad Benson, Body Talk.....those kill, IMO. The Abbey Road thing is pretty cool, despite the CTI CheezyStrings(tm).

[Trane]

I personally love a lot of those CTI Benson records, but esp. Bad Benson, Body Talk.....those kill, IMO. The Abbey Road thing is pretty cool, despite the CTI CheezyStrings(tm).

Isn't that an A&M album??

[wideopenears]

I don't think so, but I could be wrong....White Rabbit is another one....the Other Side of Abbey Road....oh, I just checked, and you're right!
Huh. Reminds me of CTI for sure.

Good King Bad I love as well...

[N_Singh]

I don't think so, but I could be wrong....White Rabbit is another one....the Other Side of Abbey Road....oh, I just checked, and you're right!
Huh. Reminds me of CTI for sure.

Good King Bad I love as well...

This is off topic surely but to me, CTI, Creed Taylor, Lalo Sciffrin, Henry Mancini, Gerald Wilson, et al-that very unique late 60s to mid 70s orchestrated-psychedelic big band music is STUNNING and sadly HUGELY overlooked.

[Mister Triscuits]

I don't think so, but I could be wrong....White Rabbit is another one....the Other Side of Abbey Road....oh, I just checked, and you're right!
Huh. Reminds me of CTI for sure.

It was CTI. Sort of. CTI started out as an imprint of A&M before Creed Taylor spun it off into an independent label. (See also the Wes Montgomery albums Taylor produced for A&M: strings, Beatles songs, the CTI logo, it's all there.)

[progeezer]

Not to dis BB, which I listened to a whole lot when it first was released, and still enjoy, but stuff like Kinda Blue & Silent Way has held up much better for me.

[mogrooves]

Benson was an ill-fit with Miles; oil and water. Benson's "thang" were those smokin' Columbia sides he cut with Ronnie Cuber and Lonnie Smith, It's Uptown and Cookbook. Of the CTI's Beyond the Blue Horizon is the one, and Blue Benson (on Polydor) was pretty hip. With Miles? Joe Beck was better.

[Hobo Chang Ba]

Wow. For me, Miles' great live stuff came later. I like BB specifically because I like the very low level business of the large ensemble he has on this one.

With the power & the craziness of the later bands live, a big ensemble like this probably would have been a big mess, but here, its quite subtle. IMO.

I too like the later live releases. But stuff like It's About That Time and MD At Filmore (either the original or the unedited "bootleg Vol 3" version) is Miles at his best (read: firing on all cylinders), to my cloth ears at least.

[Hobo Chang Ba]

Attachment 4036

^ a MUST HEAR counterpart to the beast that is Bitches Brew

Absolutely.

[JJ88]

When I first heard it, I was like 'what the hell is that?'- that was in 2005 or so, as such it's lost little of its power to shock! Slowly it did get its hooks in- I think that huge, stop-start, echo-swamped trumpet riff that reappears through the title track was the first thing that I latched onto. Dave Holland's bass work was the next. 'Spanish Key' is fairly accessible too, I think.

I definitely agree it's rough-around-the-edges in comparison to 'In A Silent Way' and 'Jack Johnson', but the sprawl is part of the appeal. Love the album cover too. Are there significant differences between the remix on the CD and the original album mix?

RE; George Benson. I liked his brand of 'smooth jazz' on the 'Breezin' album.

[Trane]

I don't think so, but I could be wrong....White Rabbit is another one....the Other Side of Abbey Road....oh, I just checked, and you're right!
Huh. Reminds me of CTI for sure.

Good King Bad I love as well...

Yeah, you're right... certauinly fits well the CTI style... as didthe similar Booker T's McLemore Avenue

It was CTI. Sort of. CTI started out as an imprint of A&M before Creed Taylor spun it off into an independent label. (See also the Wes Montgomery albums Taylor produced for A&M: strings, Beatles songs, the CTI logo, it's all there.)

Yeah, this is vaguely familiar to me , but Creed Taylor is really an Impulse! man

This is off topic surely but to me, CTI, Creed Taylor, Lalo Sciffrin, Henry Mancini, Gerald Wilson, et al-that very unique late 60s to mid 70s orchestrated-psychedelic big band music is STUNNING and sadly HUGELY overlooked.

As such, a lot of those CTI albums had some fantastic music (Deodato's fantastic Zarathrusta, for ex), but also a pile of real dreck in them... Not sure it's overlooked, though... Not sure Bob James recorded for CTI, (his first two albums are very much amongst the best in that genre), but he was a key man for CTI.

EDIT: I just checked (One & Two are CTI)

[rael74]

I much as I appreciate the importance of Bitches Brew, I listen to On The Corner and Get Up With It much more. Certainly the latter is his closest venture into what we term 'prog'.

[walt]

I too like the later live releases. But stuff like It's About That Time and MD At Filmore (either the original or the unedited "bootleg Vol 3" version) is Miles at his best (read: firing on all cylinders), to my cloth ears at least.

Pretty much my sentiments as well.What i recall of BB music was,to my ears, like dry ice,putting out that kind of cool burn, great in its own way, but the live stuff(Fillmore East,both of 'em,and Fillmore West),was red hot,high octane n-r-g,with brio to spare.

It's About That Time,(the earlier 1970 Fillmore set,Shorter's last roundup,no Jarrett) is my fave.

[Steve F.]

Are there significant differences between the remix on the CD and the original album mix?

It's probably heretical to say so, but I think the remix fixes all the problems of the original version while 'changing' it as little as possible.

My appreciation of the album grew larger once I could enjoy the remix.

YMMV.

[JJ88]

^Thanks, Steve.

[walt]

I hope there is additional music from the "It's About That Time" live Fillmore East sets that Columbia is sitting on.Maybe one day we'll see/hear those tapes(if they exist).

I always thought Fillmore East sounded great,lp and first cd issue.The new Bootleg release improves separation on the bass and drums,imo,but it's not a night and day difference from the earlier iterations(again, imo).

[Steve F.]

I hope there is additional music from the "It's About That Time" live Fillmore East sets that Columbia is sitting on.Maybe one day we'll see/hear those tapes(if they exist).

It's About That Time is the Filmore East set - the last show with Shorter, right?

There is the previous night's tapes and they do exist.

[Steve F.]

...but the sprawl is part of the appeal.

Hugely agree. Very controlled and 'for the good of the ensemble, not so much for individuals to shine' sprawl, but sprawl nonetheless.

[walt]

It's About That Time is the Filmore East set - the last show with Shorter, right?

There is the previous night's tapes and they do exist.

Correct.

Glad to hear there's other music from those concerts in the vaults.

[GuitarGeek]

It's About That Time is the Filmore East set - the last show with Shorter, right?

There is the previous night's tapes and they do exist.

Yes, but hasn't it been said the tapes are unusable because the engineers weren't expecting a "loud" band the first night, and hence, there's massive "in the red" distortion that can't be corrected?

[walt]

Yes, but hasn't it been said the tapes are unusable because the engineers weren't expecting a "loud" band the first night, and hence, there's massive "in the red" distortion that can't be corrected?

All i know about this matter is what's printed in the booklet in the Bootleg Series Fillmore East release.There is(apparently),some distortion on the earlier concert tapes from "It's About That Time",but i don't recall any comment about the unreleased tapes being unusable(if there are words to that effect written elsewhere i haven't seen them).

"It's About That Time" sounds fine to me, LOUD but fine.

[Steve F.]

Yes, but hasn't it been said the tapes are unusable because the engineers weren't expecting a "loud" band the first night, and hence, there's massive "in the red" distortion that can't be corrected?

I have a bootleg copy. That's how I know it exists. There is not massive in the red distortion.

[Mister Triscuits]

"I made six studio dates with this group [the 65-68 quintet] in four years ... We recorded much more than what was released (some of it came out later on Directions and Circle in the Round). And there were some live recordings that I guess Columbia will release when they think that they can make the most money--probably after I'm dead." (from Miles, the Autobiography)

He called that one, didn't he!