King Crimson:Discipline

[JIF]

After passing it on my many visits to Best Buy, I finally broke down and got Discipline by King Crimson. I got the remixed Steve Wilson version. I am on the second to last track and I like(nee love) what I hear so far. Too bad more band can't successfully mix prog and new wave like Ling Crimson did on Discipline, Yes did on Drama, Rush did on their first three '80s releases, or Tull did on A. Can anyone compare Steve Wilson's remix with the previous Discipline cd versions? I don't plan on getting other Crimson remixes; only got this one cause it was the only cd version of Discipline I could find. Also, what do others think of this debut of the "new" Crimson King? Best regards, J.I.F.

[JKL2000]

Have the reissue but haven't listened to it yet!

A crucial album for me - remember well seeing KC in Syracuse in 1982 and being totally blown away (I've told the tale several times here so won't bore, but I was with Jon Fishman of future Phish fame as we were friends). Anyway, after seeing the show I ran out and bought the Discipline and ITCOTKC LPs the next morning, skipped all my classes, and listened to them all day in my friend Ed's room X) . Brilliant move! Fun, anyway... Yeah, a masterful album that carried on the tradition of KC and advanced the kind of music created by artists like Talking Heads at the same time. No way to do that other than being totally tapped in to what you're doing, I guess.

[Spiral]

Can anyone compare Steve Wilson's remix with the previous Discipline cd versions?

Anyone who's got the Wilson edition. The DVD contains both the 40th & 30th mixes.

[notallwhowander]

All I have is the 30th edition, so I can't make comparisons. However, if they had made a vinyl-sized box set of this album, I would have bought it. I love it: a seminal album for me.

[Wisdomview]

One of those 'holy f@#K records' that can blow your mind. A game changer really........

[80s were ok]

One of those 'holy f@#K records' that can blow your mind. A game changer really........

and the album is only like 35 minutes long. More bands need to look at albums like this and realize you don't need to cram a CD with 79 minutes of music just for the sake of doing it.

[Drake]

Yep, one of the classics. Also interesting comparison with Drama. Never thought of that, but it makes sense. A band that apparently is influenced by the 80s version of KC would be Dutch Uncles. Check them out. The boys can play.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

Extraordinary ... perhaps the only perfect album I own. (I do not consider it KC's best, but their better albums are both flawed.) There is not a note that could be improved.

[Zeuhlmate]

My favorite album that year. Never heard anything like this before. And I practised my butt of on guitar to learn those riffs:)
Haven't heard the Wilson version, but I'm curious if he removed the guitarsolo on Matte kudasai, like on at least one earlier version. Big mistake IMO.

[JAMOOL]

Really a singularity in the land of New Wave (okay, it sounds a little...nay, a LOT like Talking Heads, but I put 90% of that on Belew), as the "dual guitar lines" idea is something I've never heard before. I'm skeptical of a remix though; the original seemed perfect to me.

[nosebone]

Really a singularity in the land of New Wave (okay, it sounds a little...nay, a LOT like Talking Heads, but I put 90% of that on Belew), as the "dual guitar lines" idea is something I've never heard before. I'm skeptical of a remix though; the original seemed perfect to me.

Saw them at the Savoy in NYC a week after purchasing the album.

Brilliant show/record , standing ovations galore.

Remember, at the time Simmons electronic drums, the Chapman stick and Roland guitar synths were all futuristic cutting edge musical tools.

This only heightened the intensity of KC in the early 80s.

[simon moon]

The best of their 80's releases. The entire album holds up brilliantly, where ToaPP and Beat are a little spotty.

As far as the comparisons to The Talking Heads, I only see it on a superficial level.

I have a Japanese vinyl release from '82 that blows away any CD release I've heard. I own the mini-LP release and the 30th versions, neither holds a candle to the vinyl. I have not heard the 40th yet.

[gregory]

Can anyone compare Steve Wilson's remix with the previous Discipline cd versions?
No guitar solo in Matte Kudasai on Wilson's CD.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

The entire album holds up brilliantly, where ToaPP and Beat are a little spotty.
I believe the Frippster would agree with you ... he felt that Beat and ToaPP were the price the band paid to record Discipline -- almost literally: they had a really great album together, but the rekkid company wouldn't release it unless they signed a three-album contract.

[jkelman]

My review of the 40th anniversary edition here (http://j.mp/pHn2Sl).

[polmico]

Extraordinary ... perhaps the only perfect album I own. (I do not consider it KC's best, but their better albums are both flawed.) There is not a note that could be improved.

This and Godbluff are the perfect albums I've ever heard. Love this album, and it's my favorite Crimson album. '82 is my favorite Crimson tour. Love love this band.

[polmico]

No guitar solo in Matte Kudasai on Wilson's CD.

I'm guessing this is the Fripp solo, right? It's on the CD somewhere, included as a bonus. I've always preferred the two guitar version rather than the three guitar version.

[Spiral]

I'm guessing this is the Fripp solo, right? It's on the CD somewhere, included as a bonus.

Both versions are on the 30th anniversary CD, but for some odd reason not the 40th.

[N_Singh]

It's very strange for me to consider this album, which I now like and own, to be considered in the same scope and artistic breadth as the best of the 69-74 stuff. I was a kid when Discipline came out; it didn't seem extraordinary or out-of-phase with other music of the time. Now, in the early 80s, I also encountered the KC 69-74 (particularly Larks), and that seemed to me so much imaginative, creative, and not-of-this-world. I projected a certain aesthetic to the music of the 68-76 period, in which musicians could follow their muse unfettered by boundaries. To an 80s kid it was like Larks was like Larks was from Mars. The music of the early 80s was all about enforced, austere, "new wave" boundaries and limitations. Talking Heads or Mahavishnu? I'll take Johnny Mac over David Byrne every time. And twice on Sundays.

[Jeremy Bender]

I've never considered the 80's band to be King Crimson, no matter how many times Robert Fripp (who I admire greatly otherwise) repeats the canard that some little angel whispered in to his ear that his band --and yes, it was *his* band-- named Discipline was really King Crimson. What probably happened was that record companies whispered in his ear "Discipline? Not interested. King Crimson and their built-in fanbase? Interested" (yes, I know that the Belew and Levin didn't like the name Discipline either). I love this bit from Sid Smith's KC book re: RF's "pathetic interaction with people" (in this case the Boz/Collins/Wallace band) per Dik Fraser:

The attitude is that 'I can get good guys and they can do what they want' and then it doesn't work. He doesn't want to be the bandleader and tell people what to do but then he can't stand it when they don't do what he wants. I don't think it's that strange, I think it's a problem a lot of people have. He's in love with the idea but the practice pisses him off.

In the case of the 80's band, it's telling the others that he's breaking up the band while they're eating breakfast in their hotel restaurant. I still can't figure out what all the Drive to 81 > Incline to 84 stuff is about, but it seems that Fripp became disenchanted around the time of Beat.

I laughed when I put this album on for the first time, Elephant Talk was so Talking Heads it was kind of sad. The rest of the album has some songs I like, but I haven't played it in over ten years and likely never will again. I also saw this band live and it was a good show, but that "enforced, austere, "new wave" boundaries and limitations" that N. Singh mentions above for me was very true, the 80's band had nowhere near the power and shredding ability of the RF/AB/Trey Gunn/Pat M. band that I saw a few times in the early 2000's.

[Arkangel3]

Hands dowm (imho, of course) the best of that 80's Trilogy of KC magic. If you REALLY want to hear just how absolutely monstrous and like a musical juggernaut these guys were, listen to "Absent Lovers", from 1984. It's a live album recorded on the very last ever tour and show of this band before the breakup (and a few years wait for the "Thrak"/Double Trio band). Remarkable. One of the best live albums of all time, (And Bruford's solo/introduction to a stellar "Indiscipline" is just jaw dropping).

[zombywoof]

I like this album, but 70s Crim will always be my favorite. There really isn't a bad Crimson album, though.

[CaffieneMan]

I also enjoy this album a lot, but *really* dig KC with Wetton, Fripp, Cross, and Bruford

[gregory]

I don't like it. I prefer Beat and TOAPP.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

I don't like it. I prefer Beat and TOAPP.


:O

[ItalProgRules]

Ling Crimson did on Discipline, Yes did on Drama, Rush did on their first three '80s releases, or Tull did on A. Can anyone compare Steve Wilson's remix with the previous Discipline cd versions? I don't plan on getting other Crimson remixes; only got this one cause it was the only cd version of Discipline I could find. Also, what do others think of this debut of the "new" Crimson King? Best regards, J.I.F.

Back at the time, I found every one of those albums to be a big disappointment. Reason is, I was only 16 in 1980, had just gotten into Prog over the preceding couple of years, and was sad that the (classic) era was obviously ending just as I was getting heavily into it.

But nowadays, long away from that particular time and circumstance, I love every one of those albums. :)

[itserik]

one of my Crimson faves. My first time listening to it was in the car on the 45 min trip to the concert with a few prog buds...and I wasn't impressed as I was a huge fan of Wetton era Crimson. We arrived late. As we walked into the Tower Theater they were playing Indiscipline. I was immediately blown away. Fripp, Bruford, Levin, and Belew jamming away. I'm not sure I would love it as much as I do had I not seen it performed. Man would love to relive that concert.

[taliesin]

Great great album. Not a weak moment on the whole thing.

And seeing the tour a couple of weeks after the album came out blew the top of my head off.

Oh, and yes, this is absolutely King Crimson.

[pugnewman]

i had the original cd release and always thought it was inferial to the album (which was average). the SW remaster is way better than the original cd..

[JIF]

i had the original cd release and always thought it was inferial to the album (which was average). the SW remaster is way better than the original cd..SW didn't remaster it, he only remixed it. Simon Heyworth and Robert Fripp remastered it.

[Dave (in MA)]

The best of the 3 80s albums, but Requiem is the best single track and side 2 of 3oaPP is the best side.

[ajcmixer]

Stunning album and an equally stunning tour. I, too, was@The Savoy in NYC mere weeks after the album was released and it was one of the most mind-blowing experiences that I've ever attended. To see those songs, already great on the album, come to an even fuller life live (like THE SHELTERING SKY. Oh, my! :D) was like musical heaven on earth for an hour and a half or so. I purchased the next two albums and attended their tours but, unfortunately, they could not reach the level of the first album and tour. The bar had been raised too high.

Peace,
Alex

[ItalProgRules]

I never got to see this version of the band live, but Neil and jack and Me is a pretty damn good consolation prize.

[Stickleback]

I, too, was@The Savoy in NYC mere weeks after the album was released and it was one of the most mind-blowing experiences that I've ever attended.

Just curious as to how they filled a whole concert with only one album's worth of material and Belew's refusal to sing older songs.

[ItalProgRules]

Stickle, I wasn't there, but I found this setlist for the Savoy:


Frippertronics
Discipline*
Thela Hun Ginjeet
Red
Matte Kudasai
The Sheltering Sky
Neal And Jack And Me
Frame By Frame
Manhattan
Elephant Talk
Sartori In Tangier
Larks Tongues In Aspic Pt II

[yogibear]

i'd go with best of the trilogy since it was the first one to feature the dual guitar interlocking motifs and riffage doing the melodies etal. wonderful stuff . perfect? don't know but i do know its killer and the tunes at the time were all ground breaking interesting challenging even.

[Mister Triscuits]

Manhattan

This was an early instrumental version of "Neurotica."

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

I also saw them shortly after the album release, in San Francisco: it was a killer show. I was amazed that they could play some of that stuff live and stay in synch. They also played an early version of LTiA3 at our show, but I don't think they played "Manhattan."

[mogrooves]

I came to this album only ten years ago. I found it interesting but not particularly compelling (and not "King Crimson" to my mind). Its New Wave archness (or arch New Wave-ness) tempers its earnest "etude"-ness, but only so much. Half-decent, imo, "Matte Kudasai" being a particular fave, the "Albatross" of the 80s, as some critic put it. Indeed.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Too bad more band can't successfully mix prog and new wave like Ling Crimson did on Discipline, Yes did on Drama, Rush did on their first three '80s releases, or Tull did on A. [...] what do others think of this debut of the "new" Crimson King? Best regards, J.I.F.
I actually think those 70s acts were generally very dull at channelling what they perceived as the "new wave", although of the mentioned, KC were by far the best at it.

There are still tunes on this album that I enjoy well enough ("Matte Kudasai", "The Sheltering Sky" et al.), and Discipline is definitely the strongest of their three 80s efforts (IMO), but altogether I just never warmed to the alleged "significance" of it - and especially when considering what was being made by 80s artists whose merger of new wave and progressive ideals were at least innovative; The Red Crayola (Soldier Talk), MX-80 Sound, Orthotonics, Stormy Six (Al Volo), Debile Menthol, Nekropolis (Peter Frohmader), Dull Schicksal, Proof of Utah, Skeleton Crew, Cardiacs, The Work, Camberwell Now, Zut Un Feu Rouge, Bernard Szajner, The Ex, Francois Breant, Etron Fou Leloublan etc. etc.

[ItalProgRules]

MX-80

Awesome band. I discovered them back in the day from a free Ralph Records sampler. Their guitar player, Bruce something (?) was truly insane, and I mean that in a good way. "Someday You'll Be King" should be on every New Wave compilation instead of being completely forgotten.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Awesome band. I discovered them back in the day from a free Ralph Records sampler. Their guitar player, Bruce something (?) was truly insane, and I mean that in a good way. "Someday You'll Be King" should be on every New Wave compilation instead of being completely forgotten.
Bruce Anderson, I think. I agree on all accounts, and there's no doubt that they also were highly influential on some levels of rock development - obscure as they might remain. Sometimes I've wondered if the whole Skin Graft (label) aesthetic of "deconstructivist (nowave)" rock music more or less emannated from bands like MX-80, Red Crayola, Pere Ubu and other "post-Beefheart'ian" acts.

I know for a fact that people like Thurston Moore, Arto Lindsay and, here in Norway, John Hegre (Jazzkammer, Merzbow etc.; he was the one who introduced me to the Out of the Tunnel album) all are indebted to the MXs.

[polmico]

Camberwell Now

Freakin' great band. So is the parent band, This Heat (though they have their roots in the '70s, and perhaps that's why you didn't mention them).

[Scrotum Scissor]

Freakin' great band. So is the parent band, This Heat (though they have their roots in the '70s, and perhaps that's why you didn't mention them).
Well, Deceit is one of my fave albums of all time. But This Heat were arguably too consistently avant-garde to warrant the "new wave vs. progressive" tag - whilst Camberwell Now could at least in part be said to have maintained an art/post-punk ethos to much of their work. Both were absolutely magnificent bands, IMHO.

To be fair, some of the names I mentioned were rather contemporary "progressive proper" than actually bringing together elements of any "new" wave. I guess.

[HealthyNational]

Stickle, I wasn't there, but I found this setlist for the Savoy:


Frippertronics
Discipline*
Thela Hun Ginjeet
Red
Matte Kudasai
The Sheltering Sky
Neal And Jack And Me
Frame By Frame
Manhattan
Elephant Talk
Sartori In Tangier
Larks Tongues In Aspic Pt II
"Indiscipline" was also played; final song prior to LTIA encore. Caught all 6 sets over the 3 nights. 30+ years ago already. Never will forget. Wow.

[Adrian]

The best of the 3 80s albums, but Requiem is the best single track and side 2 of 3oaPP is the best side.

I agree with this 100%.

[ajcmixer]

"Indiscipline" was also played; final song prior to LTIA encore.

Thank you. I was at that show and kept looking at the setlist telling myself there had to be something missing and you nailed it. Once again, a great show!

Peace,
Alex

[JSS]

and the album is only like 35 minutes long.
It's best feature. Gets to the point, and if you don't like it - it ends quickly.

[A. Scherze]

... if you don't like it - it ends quickly.

If I don't like something, I lift up the stylus, change the channel, or hit EJECT.