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Rickenbacker
12-03-2012, 04:45 PM
Ok. I Know I'm several decades late for this party, & in the past, I *had* read about the musicians Jimmy Page "borrowed" from. But only for the very 1st time today have I heard Bert Jansch's "Black Waterside". All I can say is "holy crap". Seriously, just about note-for-note! Right down to the *title* too.

Big question that immediately popped into my head- How did Jansch react to Black Mountainside??

mogrooves
12-03-2012, 05:18 PM
http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html

meimjustalawnmower
12-03-2012, 05:59 PM
Listen and learn...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc

Gravedigger
12-03-2012, 06:30 PM
Then there is this famous intro similar to Spirit:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Sdbg2is2zQ

rcarlberg
12-03-2012, 06:36 PM
There are several compilation albums out like this one, compiling the originals LZ "borrowed" from:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Roots-Of-Led-Zeppelin/dp/B008B09MT6/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1354577656&sr=8-9&keywords=led+zeppelin+roots

gregory
12-03-2012, 06:40 PM
Big question that immediately popped into my head- How did Jansch react to Black Mountainside??
Jansh wasn't an author too.

gregory
12-03-2012, 06:44 PM
Listen and learn...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc
Learn what?)) Jimmy played this tune with Yardbirds and with Jake Holmes on vocals. And any LZ interpretation of this was by a long shot better.

gregory
12-03-2012, 06:49 PM
http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html
Do you seriously need the answer to this idiotic question - who was JP?

gregory
12-03-2012, 06:53 PM
Spirit thing doesn't impress. While LZ thing is a masterpiece. What a cruel world, right?:)

gregory
12-03-2012, 06:57 PM
Jimmy Page...oh man.
Yes, he is THE MAN. Rene Magritte of blues rock.

Vic2012
12-03-2012, 06:58 PM
^ I agree. The Spirit thing might've been a coincidence (or maybe not), but tough shit! ;).

3LockBox
12-03-2012, 07:17 PM
Page wasn't the only artist to ever lift a riff from old blues artists, but he was the richest, thus the one that got sued. BTW, I agree that they shoulda got sued. What was he thinking?

I also agree that his interpretations of those songs mopped the floor with the originals. Yeah, Page ripped off Whole Lotta Love, but it sure did smoke.

rcarlberg
12-03-2012, 07:42 PM
Jimmy played this tune with Yardbirds and with Jake Holmes on vocals. And any LZ interpretation of this was by a long shot better.Which wouldn't be so bad if he hadn't claimed writing credits on all of these songs (http://guitarless.com/2010/07/jimmy-page-sued-for-dazed-and-confused/).

Garden Dreamer
12-03-2012, 08:06 PM
During my blues obsession in the 1980's, I happened to pick up an old Sonny Boy Williamson album and was shocked to hear a song that was basically the acoustic intro to LZ's "Bring It On Home"... right down to the "underwater" vocals.

NogbadTheBad
12-03-2012, 08:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyvLsutfI5M

meimjustalawnmower
12-03-2012, 09:43 PM
Learn what?)) Jimmy played this tune with Yardbirds and with Jake Holmes on vocals. And any LZ interpretation of this was by a long shot better.

I've never heard anything about Jake Holmes performing with the Yardbirds. What I do know is that Page witnessed a Jake Holmes performance and went on to adapt the song for both the Yardbirds and Led Zeppelin, and going as far as taking credit for authorship. There's absolutely no question that Holmes wrote the song. Whether LZ's interpretation is better or not has no bearing on the matter. What does matter is that Holmes shoulda got paid for every fucking sale of LZ's first album.

Scott Bails
12-03-2012, 09:49 PM
I thought the whole point of the lawsuit was that Holmes played this song when he opened for the Yardbirds?

meimjustalawnmower
12-03-2012, 09:58 PM
I thought the whole point of the lawsuit was that Holmes played this song when he opened for the Yardbirds?
That's exactly right.

GuitarGeek
12-04-2012, 03:53 AM
^ I agree. The Spirit that might've been a coincidence (or maybe not), but tough shit! ;).

Zeppelin played Spirit's Fresh Garbage in their early shows. You can hear it on bootlegs. No fucking way is Stairway's resemblance to Taurus a coincidence.

Trane
12-04-2012, 05:36 AM
Hey it had been a while since this subject had been up on PE ;)

No Pride
12-04-2012, 11:41 AM
Zeppelin played Spirit's Fresh Garbage in their early shows. You can hear it on bootlegs. No fucking way is Stairway's resemblance to Taurus a coincidence.
I didn't know that. Interesting! But let's face facts; it's just a chord progression and not a radically unique one at that. The Beatles used it in "Michelle" before Spirit and the standard, "My Funny Valentine" used it long before there was any Beatles.

rcarlberg
12-04-2012, 12:53 PM
"Good artists borrow, great artists steal." - variously credited to T.S. Eliot, Picasso and Miles Davis

Rufus
12-04-2012, 02:40 PM
Spirit supported Zep early days and so had been exposed to Taurus .

ronmac
12-04-2012, 02:53 PM
Spirit supported Zep early days.

I was going to make the same point.

Bake 1
12-04-2012, 11:56 PM
I guess everyone got wind of some stink regarding Zep's failure to give credit where credit is due... gotta admit i dig a lot of what they ended up putting out, but that plagarism part 1 clip shows a level of rippin' off that might make Aliestar Crowley blush.

gregory
12-05-2012, 03:43 AM
I've never heard anything about Jake Holmes performing with the Yardbirds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUOzQS3iMpk
The Yardbirds did that song much in the same form, as LZ later did.

gregory
12-05-2012, 03:51 AM
There's absolutely no question that Holmes wrote the song. Whether LZ's interpretation is better or not has no bearing on the matter. What does matter is that Holmes shoulda got paid for every fucking sale of LZ's first album.
Are you sure you hold the candle for young Jake Holmes when he was writing this song? There's absolutely no question for me that riff, the guitar bridge and the bow intermission was written not by Holmes. Ideas like these could appear only in one head.

gregory
12-05-2012, 03:54 AM
Note: if folkie uses some traditional tunes, it's alright. More than that - it's respectful.
If a rocker - well, not just noname - a famous rocker uses the same, it's plagiarism. And no respect at all.

Chain
12-05-2012, 03:58 AM
An Academic at a University once told Me. "If you copy from one person it is plagiarism. If you copy from several people, it is research" ;)

gregory
12-05-2012, 04:04 AM
An Academic at a University once told Me. "If you copy from one person it is plagiarism. If you copy from several people, it is research" ;)
He was witty enough:) Though you can't 'copy' from several people. And plagiarism is really only a copy.
You can't have a good copy from LZ - instead you have their interpretations.

mogrooves
12-05-2012, 08:21 AM
Note: if folkie uses some traditional tunes, it's alright. More than that - it's respectful.
If a rocker - well, not just noname - a famous rocker uses the same, it's plagiarism. And no respect at all.

The difference is that traditional songs are commonly "anonymous" (and/or within the public domain), whereas the composers of most of LZ's "appropriations" were known......

Joe F.
12-05-2012, 08:30 AM
I'm not excusing Page in any way, but I wonder how much Peter Grant influenced the decision to not give proper writing credits? After all, he was focused on getting the band (and himself) the biggest cut of the money coming in as he could.

Scott Bails
12-05-2012, 09:10 AM
Note: if folkie uses some traditional tunes, it's alright. More than that - it's respectful.
If a rocker - well, not just noname - a famous rocker uses the same, it's plagiarism. And no respect at all.

I have to say, I really don't understand your constant defense of Page. The charges of plagiarism are numerous and pretty much indisputable.

meimjustalawnmower
12-05-2012, 09:20 AM
The Yardbirds did that song much in the same form, as LZ later did.

Yes, that's already been established. The issue here is who actually wrote the song vs. who took credit for it. Apparently Page settled out of court with Holmes and the song is now credited as Page inspired by Jake Holmes.

Hey I like Page as much as anyone, but he was an opportunist at best and a thief at worst.

Plasmatopia
12-05-2012, 10:52 AM
As others have said, there's no denying that lots of stuff was outright stolen (IMO, based on the examples given here and articles/examples I've read elsewhere). What I've always wanted to see was a truly comprehensive analysis, album by album, song by song, that can really boil it down to percentages. Was 10% of the LZ material stolen from others? 90%? 40%? To me there is a big difference between stealing a few ideas and incorporating them into a song that is 80-90% original versus wholesale copying of a song. And there is even a difference between 2 or 3 songs on an album that are lifted from others versus virtually every song on an album being lifted. It seems like there are always several examples of idea-theft put forward...and then we are all supposed to just concede that the rest of LZ's efforts were likely just as illegitimate?

My point is simply that we should place blame where it's due, but also give credit where it's due...I'd just love to know how much credit does LZ actually get?

rcarlberg
12-05-2012, 02:23 PM
All of the British blues bands of the '60-70s borrowed heavily from American blues masters -- Fleetwood Mac, Chicken Shack, Aynsley Dunbar's Retaliation, John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, Climax Blues Band, Groundhogs, Terry Reid, Santa Barbara Machine Head, and so forth.

Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton and Jeff Beck definitely arose out of that tradition.

Led Zeppelin however was far & away the most egregious about not crediting (or sharing royalties with!) the sources.

fictionmusic
12-05-2012, 06:53 PM
I didn't know that. Interesting! But let's face facts; it's just a chord progression and not a radically unique one at that. The Beatles used it in "Michelle" before Spirit and the standard, "My Funny Valentine" used it long before there was any Beatles.

The last time this thread topic came up I cited My Funny Valentine too, in fact it resembles almost exactly Stairway's contrary motion away from the root (descending in semi-tones and ascending in scale tones). It's not a coincidence that that kind of chromatic descending line from the root has always been refered to as a cliche line.

I have no doubts whatsoever that Zep borrowed from all over. Most blues bands do, in fact, the REAL original writers for this material were probably dead long before the people associated with the tunes were even born. For my money the Zep versions are something apiece apart (read far superior) from their roots and probably the best thing that ever happened to the writers was Zepplin getting ahold of their material.

In some notable cases (Holmes for example) there was never any restitution, but for a lot of the others who have subsequently received it, they are probably delighted page and co. took their material.
I do think it would have been far better had they been upfront about listing the copyright holders though.

Watanabe
12-05-2012, 07:13 PM
Not sure i'd take any of Zep's blues appropriations(which i don't have much of a problem with to be honest, unlike the Jake Holmes\Jansch things) over the originals.

Plant's singing usually butchered the chicago blues\outright rock and roll covers they did imo.

rcarlberg
12-05-2012, 07:14 PM
For my money the Zep versions are something apiece apart (read far superior) from their roots and probably the best thing that ever happened to the writers was Zepplin getting ahold of their material. Nobody's disputing that -- record sales alone make the point rather loudly. But the moral thing to do, the ethical thing to do, the LEGAL thing to do is to credit the songs as "Holmes, arr. Page" so the original author doesn't have to sue to get a piece of the action.

Reginod
12-05-2012, 08:02 PM
I've only had the chance to hear and see the wonderful Celebration Day once so far, but I do believe that Plant is talking before one tune or another about how they "nicked" it from somewhere and how "everybody nicks things."

fictionmusic
12-05-2012, 10:35 PM
Nobody's disputing that -- record sales alone make the point rather loudly. But the moral thing to do, the ethical thing to do, the LEGAL thing to do is to credit the songs as "Holmes, arr. Page" so the original author doesn't have to sue to get a piece of the action.

well said

Adm.Kirk
12-06-2012, 12:42 AM
It's not like Zep was the first either. Take a look at the Carl Perkins song Matchbox. When the Beatles covered it it was credited to Perkins. But this song goes way back to either Charlie Patton or Blind Lemon Jefferson. Jefferson, I think, was the first to record it but who knows if he actually wrote it or stole it from someone himself.

Bill

scags
12-06-2012, 10:28 AM
They may not have given credit on the original albums, but I'm pretty sure they did pay out a lot later on, without a lot of press.

mogrooves
12-06-2012, 04:47 PM
It's not like Zep was the first

A long-standing practice. For one, Handel was the Jimmy Page of the 18th century......

GuitarGeek
12-06-2012, 05:54 PM
They may not have given credit on the original albums, but I'm pretty sure they did pay out a lot later on, without a lot of press.

Yeah, well you kinda have to start paying out when the copyright holders of the original versions of the songs start suing you.

rcarlberg
12-06-2012, 07:46 PM
On July 28, 1978, Led Zeppelin and their record company, Swan Song Records, settled amicably out of court for a reported $130,000 plus future royalties with the stipulation that the settlement's incriminating terms be kept confidential. Source (http://www.led-zeppelin.org/multimedia/index.php?m=roots)
http://www.hark.com/clips/qmqjfdsztg-howard-stern-exposes-led-zeppelin-as-a-farce
http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=82341

gregory
12-07-2012, 04:20 PM
To me there is a big difference between stealing a few ideas and incorporating them into a song that is 80-90% original versus wholesale copying of a song. And there is even a difference between 2 or 3 songs on an album that are lifted from others versus virtually every song on an album being lifted. It seems like there are always several examples of idea-theft put forward...and then we are all supposed to just concede that the rest of LZ's efforts were likely just as illegitimate?

My point is simply that we should place blame where it's due, but also give credit where it's due...I'd just love to know how much credit does LZ actually get?
IMO this is not the 'credits' problem - it's only a musical problem. Music is different for those who hear the difference.
The ‘no credits’, or ‘wrong credits’ problem in pop music world usually considered from juridical point of view – as a fact of theft, plainly, or if some supposed theft is hard to prove artificially, nevertheless the fact of one using someone else’s material in his work is thetically regarded as a great damage to original author.
But the musical reasons of ‘borrowing’ are often left out of account. Let’s give a break to Mr. Page the scapegoat and take a broader view. MMEB, album Roaring Silence, the two last songs – Starbird(credited Mann, Slade) and Questions(Mann, Slade). The original themes of mentioned songs were not written by that creative duo, "Mann, Slade" – I can tell you this very confidently. You won't point the rhetorical question , why they didn’t credited Stravinsky( for Starbird) and Schubert( for Questions)? – yeah, really, who knows why? But it could be for musical reasons. Perhaps they didn’t wanted their songs to be compared with the originals. Why not accept that maybe they didn’t find their interpretations quite valuable for mentioning big names under those pop rock tryings?
I guess this different point of view also should be noticed for more objective approach. Because in classical music it’s common practice that composers didn’t care much for giving credits when sometimes it’s better to work with someone else’s theme. The main reason of credits ungiven is very simple –anyhow it will end as different music. Should I bring some examples?

Scott Bails
12-07-2012, 08:04 PM
No, we get it. Page has never plagiarized, and even if he did, he's not the only one, so why criticize. :roll


Seriously, I've never seen such an apologist.

ronmac
12-07-2012, 08:16 PM
Comparing to classical is not quite fair, since many of them are in the public domain. That doesn't mean credit shouldn't be given (at the very least out of respect). Page stole from living artists and, for whatever reason, apparently, didn't think anyone would notice.

Adm.Kirk
12-08-2012, 01:56 AM
Dylan has also been called out for this. I'll quote from a recent Rolling Stone article: "Dylan lashed out at critics who suggest his use of Civil War-era poetry and other old texts amounts to plagarism. ""Who's been reading poet Henry Tinrod lately?" Dylan asked. "And if you think it's so easy to quote him, do it yourself and see how far you can get. Wussies and pussies complain about that stuff. It's an old thing-part of the tradition. It goes way back. These are the same people who tried to pin the name Judas on me. Judas the most hated name in human history. If you think you've been called a a bad name, try to work your way out from under that. Yeah and for what? For playing an electric guitar? As if that is in some kind of way equitable to betraying our Lord and delivering him up to be crucified. All those evil motherfuckers can rot in hell"".

Later in the same article Dylan responds to the continuing discussion of plagarism with this:

"People have tried to stop me every inch of the way. They've always had bad stuff to say about me. Newsweek magazine lit the fuse way back when. Newsweek printed that some kid from New Jersey wrote "Blowin' in the Wind", and it wasn't me at all. And When that didn't fly, people accused me of stealing the melody from a 16th century Protestant hymn. And when that didn't work, they said they made a mistake and it really was an old Negro spiritual. So what's so different? it's gone on for so long I might not be able to live without it now. Fuck'em. I'll see them all in their graves."

Uncle Bobby is rather unapologetic! But the truth is that he openly will tell you how he got the idea for this song or that song from, for example, an old Carter family song. This stuff has been going on with Dylan since 1962 and isn't likely to change. He's a folk guy, so it's part of that heritage, it's only the rock critics who have a problem with it and they don't really have a leg to stand on since he's open about what he nicks. Blues musicians have done this forever as well and perhaps that was why Page took ideas from Howlin' Wolf or whoever and rewrote them for his own use. I will say this much about Led Zeppelin's use of the blues: They were my doorway into the blues world. They made me want to go see who in the world Willie Dixon and Memphis Minnie were. This helped me discover the Wolf, Muddy, Robert Johnson, Buddy Guy, Blind Lemon Jefferson, and many other blues legends. Oddly enough, they, along with The Who also opened me up to longer more progressive pieces of music too. Hence my somewhat at odds love of old blues men and English guys who played Aerie Fairie music.

Bill

Vic2012
12-08-2012, 07:31 AM
Dylan has also been called out for this. ......

I will say this much about Led Zeppelin's use of the blues: They were my doorway into the blues world.


That was a great post Admiral. I didn't know Bobby D was ever accused of plagiarism. The only story I ever heard about Bob that might've been a little controversial was when he recorded "House Of The Rising Sun." I think Dave Van Ronk was the first guy to popularize that song in the Greenwich Village scene way back when. Then the Animals got a huge hit out of it, and Dave and Bob were accused of copying/plagiarizing the Animals. Of course, we all know that "House..." is one of those songs that was in the public domain and no one seems to know exactley who wrote it.

As far as Led Zep goes, they were my doorway to the blues too. When I was 13 I was becoming an aspiring, electric blues guitarist. I could never afford a real electric guitar so I'd spend hours fartin' around with guitars at Guitar Center(s).
All because of Led Zeppelin. Without LZ I never would've given a shit about the blues. I never really explored a lot of the old blues greats. My older brother had a lot of old blues stuff, but he was more into the folky, acoustic, Delta type stuff. I just wanted ROCK! :) I mostly liked heavy, electric, English, white-boy blues.

Vic2012
12-08-2012, 07:35 AM
And further more.... I don't get the merciless, lynching mob attitude that some people have toward Jimmy Page/LZ. Yeah, they fucked up by not giving Willie Dixon (and whoever else) due credit. But it's all been rectified. Willie got his credit. His estate got all the royalties, correct? Still, people wanna lynch Jimmy. The fact is, you can't take away the huge success of Led Zeppelin. When it comes to rock's deities, LZ is just slightly under The Beatles as far as worldwide fame, and scope of influence. They are that important. And since they were, and still are HUGE, they're a big target.

ronmac
12-08-2012, 09:59 AM
Bill, nobody denies that "borrowing" happens, especially in the folk world. Hell, it's nearly a pre-requisite. This is about giving proper credit. in particular, giving credit to people who were still living at the time.

ronmac
12-08-2012, 10:01 AM
Maybe someone has to borrow a LZ tune without giving credit.

Jerjo
12-08-2012, 10:12 AM
Well, they've certainly borrowed Bonzo's drum licks without payback. Heart's "Barracuda" is a rip of "Achilles Last Stand" but Zep has always liked the Wilson sisters so maybe they got a pass. "My Sharona" is the "Heartbreaker" riff, just churned up a little to cover their tracks.

Scott Bails
12-08-2012, 11:05 AM
"My Sharona" is the "Heartbreaker" riff, just churned up a little to cover their tracks.

Huh?

Vic2012
12-08-2012, 11:43 AM
Huh?

Double huh. I don't hear the similarity at all.

fictionmusic
12-08-2012, 11:57 AM
"My Sharona" is the "Heartbreaker" riff, just churned up a little to cover their tracks.

I still remember hearing My Sharona for the first time in Vancouver. I immediately thought of the Immigrant Song. That's because both those tunes make great use of octaves.

Jerjo
12-08-2012, 12:42 PM
I'm no guitar player but I have a friend who says it's the Heartbreaker riff played in reverse. Now in checking the Interwebs, one of the Knack claims he stole it from the Spencer Davis Group's "Gimme Some Lovin'". So I'll back off that claim.

roddenberry
12-08-2012, 03:35 PM
I was aware of the Howlin' Wolf cover, but didn't know about all of the other uncredited covers, Damn! :O

Robert

Adm.Kirk
12-08-2012, 03:58 PM
Bill, nobody denies that "borrowing" happens, especially in the folk world. Hell, it's nearly a pre-requisite. This is about giving proper credit. in particular, giving credit to people who were still living at the time.

Willie Dixon was credited on the first album for You Shook Me and I Can't Quit You Baby, Memphis Minnie was credited on When the Levee Breaks. Jake Holmes now gets "an inspired by" credit for D & C. Anne Breedon has been credited since 1990 "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You". Of course Willie Dixon sued Zep and now has his name on "Whole Lotta Love". Robert Johnson is credited for Travelling Riverside Blues.

I think Plant has felt bad about this and has spent alot of time helping to promote blues music. He spends alot of time in Mississippi at the blues museum and I think he has donated quite a bit of money for it's continued work in blues music.

And Zep has certainly had things taken from them. There is a song by Dolly Parton called "We Used To" that takes the Stairway intro note for note. What goes around comes around.

Bill

gregory
12-08-2012, 04:59 PM
And further more.... I don't get the merciless, lynching mob attitude that some people have toward Jimmy Page/LZ. Yeah, they fucked up by not giving Willie Dixon (and whoever else) due credit. But it's all been rectified. Willie got his credit. His estate got all the royalties, correct? Still, people wanna lynch Jimmy. The fact is, you can't take away the huge success of Led Zeppelin. When it comes to rock's deities, LZ is just slightly under The Beatles as far as worldwide fame, and scope of influence. They are that important. And since they were, and still are HUGE, they're a big target.
You're absolutely right. Let's look a bit closer to Baby I'm Gonna Leave You case. These are words from Wikipedia on this:
"The band was inspired to cover the song after hearing Baez's version. Both guitarist Jimmy Page and singer Robert Plant were fans of Baez. Baez's original album had indicated no writing credit, and Led Zeppelin credited the song as "Trad. arr. Page". In the 1980s, Bredon was made aware of Led Zeppelin's version of the song. Since 1990 the Led Zeppelin version has been credited to Anne Bredon/Jimmy Page & Robert Plant, and Bredon received a substantial back-payment in royalties".
Then, let's see the mob judgement on youtube, case №3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiiY4ciKFQA
Conclusion: Baez performed the song, and comes clean. LZ did the same song(very different to Baez version) and they are guilty in plagiarism.
The song originally was not written by Baez, either LZ.
A bit different story with Jansch. He recorded the traditional tune Waggoner's Land on his third album. Then LZ did the same chord progression in the song Bron-Y-Aur Stomp. Who was regarded as plagiator, you know. So, as I said above, when a folkie do the trad tune, it's OK and more, could be great. When some famous rocker will do the same, it's plagiarism. Though when it comes to interpretation, or inspiration, the plagiarism charge is not correct - simply wrong.

gregory
12-08-2012, 05:46 PM
Comparing to classical is not quite fair, since many of them are in the public domain. That doesn't mean credit shouldn't be given (at the very least out of respect). Page stole from living artists and, for whatever reason, apparently, didn't think anyone would notice.
I don't get this argument. There are inheritors, who owned the copyrights. Secondly, many composers used the themes of their contemporaries, and some themes from world famous romantics as well. There wasn't any 'public domain' back then in classical music. There was an understanding of forms, naturally. We can probably agree that classical composers are by far not as business-minded, as pop composers. It is different culture, where curiosity for developing a musical form was dominating over cost what it will. Lawsuits usually weren't accepted in the world of classical musicians - they were usually flattered when a colleague showed some interest for the music he didn't wrote. And maybe that generosity is one of the reasons why great fond of legacy became later a public domain. Rock music is another world - anyone of us can easily point some similarities between this and that theme, or riff - but can you imagine the "whole lotta" lawsuits for each case of similar combination of notes? Better close the shop then.

GuitarGeek
12-08-2012, 08:20 PM
I think Plant has felt bad about this and has spent alot of time helping to promote blues music. He spends alot of time in Mississippi at the blues museum and I think he has donated quite a bit of money for it's continued work in blues music.



The story I heard was that Plant viewed all the bad shit that happened to them, eg his car accident, the death of his son, the backstage debacle in Oakland, and Bonzo's death were all kharmic payback for playing fast and loose with the songwriting credits.

mogrooves
12-08-2012, 08:32 PM
Willie Dixon was credited on the first album for You Shook Me and I Can't Quit You Baby

Perhaps some of the royalties his estate has accrued can go to compensating all of the artists Dixon ripped off when he was a producer at Chess. What's good for the goose.......

Scott Bails
12-08-2012, 09:23 PM
one of the Knack claims he stole it from the Spencer Davis Group's "Gimme Some Lovin'".

That makes a lot more sense. I can definitely hear that.

ronmac
12-08-2012, 10:17 PM
I don't get this argument. There are inheritors, who owned the copyrights. ... And maybe that generosity is one of the reasons why great fond of legacy became later a public domain.

You missed my point. I referred to those in the public domain, not those still owned by inheritors. The reason recordings go into the public domain can be either because the true author is unknown or the designated time has elapsed since it's authorship. I think it's 75 years. Although, I believe there may be some exceptions tot he time rule.

gregory
12-09-2012, 03:29 PM
You missed my point. I referred to those in the public domain, not those still owned by inheritors. The reason recordings go into the public domain can be either because the true author is unknown or the designated time has elapsed since it's authorship. I think it's 75 years. Although, I believe there may be some exceptions tot he time rule.
Yes, but we talked about plagiarism, if you remember. You made a remark that it's not quite correct to bring the classics here, I tried to show that it's not the definitive reason for action in classical music world, to cite for one some melody or tune from another author.
And about classical composers, who are often cited by rock musicians, they could be credited or not - because it's mainly the musical problem, which is usually missed by those, who are focused to see only juridical problem here.

Scott Bails
12-09-2012, 03:40 PM
The point is that Page plagiarized, many times. All of this other stuff is completely irrelevant. Whether classical composers did it, or folk artists did it - it doesn't matter. Page did it. That's the point. It's been established, he and Plant have acknowledged it (often under duress), and any rock fan knows it.

Vic2012
12-09-2012, 07:32 PM
The point is that Page plagiarized, many times. .

Okay, get over it Scott. It changes nothing. Led Zeppelin accomplished something that most groups don't. They were, and are a very important group. They changed the musical landscape in the 70s. They influenced hard/rock and heavy metal as much as Black Sabbatch, The Beatles, The Who, or whoever.

So there. ;) :lol

Adm.Kirk
12-10-2012, 12:54 AM
The story I heard was that Plant viewed all the bad shit that happened to them, eg his car accident, the death of his son, the backstage debacle in Oakland, and Bonzo's death were all kharmic payback for playing fast and loose with the songwriting credits.

I read somewhere that he alledgedly felt it was Page's involvement with black magic or whatever that was the cause of all of the incidents that befell him and the band.

Bill

Scott Bails
12-10-2012, 08:38 AM
Okay, get over it Scott. It changes nothing. Led Zeppelin accomplished something that most groups don't. They were, and are a very important group. They changed the musical landscape in the 70s. They influenced hard/rock and heavy metal as much as Black Sabbatch, The Beatles, The Who, or whoever.

So there. ;) :lol

Sorry, Vic. Just posting in a thread that's about Page's plagiarism - like everyone else.

NogbadTheBad
12-10-2012, 08:55 AM
Okay, get over it Scott. It changes nothing. Led Zeppelin accomplished something that most groups don't. They were, and are a very important group. They changed the musical landscape in the 70s. They influenced hard/rock and heavy metal as much as Black Sabbatch, The Beatles, The Who, or whoever.

So there. ;) :lolWe get that, I'm not knocking Zep, they were great & game changing, that doesn't change the fact that Page plagiarized and only changed the credits when sued.

Scott Bails
12-10-2012, 09:08 AM
What Nogbad said. :)

Vic2012
12-10-2012, 09:21 AM
Scott I was being sarcastic. ;) But this topic comes up at least once a year and I keep thinking, it really changes nothing. Led Zeppelin (not Jimmy Page. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, or however that saying goes) accomplished a lot. They got in trouble, they paid the royalties. They're still the greatest rock band ever (after the Beatles ;)). I guess it bugs me that Jimmy/LZ get this thrown in their faces even after all the years have past. It's not like they're the only band that has lifted riffs, melodies, etc. from other sources.

NogbadTheBad
12-10-2012, 09:23 AM
Scott I was being sarcastic. ;) But this topic comes up at least once a year and I keep thinking, it really changes nothing. Led Zeppelin (not Jimmy Page. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, or however that saying goes) accomplished a lot. They got in trouble, they paid the royalties. They're still the greatest rock band ever (after the Beatles ;)). I guess it bugs me that Jimmy/LZ get this thrown in their faces even after all the years have past. It's not like they're the only band that has lifted riffs, melodies, etc. from other sources.Completely agree (except for that greatest rock band bit) :)

gregory
12-10-2012, 09:48 AM
The point is that Page plagiarized, many times.

Wrong, too much expanded definition and maybe misunderstanding.. Page did some pastiche, like Picasso, who "copied" in more than a 100 times Las Meninas by Velasquez, Millet and some other artists. Thematic variation is not plagiarism - plagiarism is appropriation of somebody's original work, ot note-to-note imitation of the original composition. Led Zeppelin's "Whole Lotta Love" was the new creature, and they wrongly paid to Mr. W.Dixon so called 'dues'. There are no dues in postmodern art. Everything is an object, so a reason for inventing the new art image. He (Dixon) should be flattered that his tune was taken to rock stardom. Instead, there was that shameful trial - and LZ paid for thier creativity. So, to keep yourselves consistent, you are due to throw away the records of the thiefs!:)

Scott Bails
12-10-2012, 09:50 AM
We'll have to disagree then. If there was no plagiarism, then money would not have changed hands.


And again, I really don't understand the blind defense.


But, whatever...

gregory
12-10-2012, 10:02 AM
Hey, take it easy...I'm just in minority...|)

Vic2012
12-10-2012, 10:40 AM
the blind defense.
...

I'm not defending plagiarism. I just don't understand the lynch mob mentallity over this. But being that Led Zeppelin conquered the world and became millionaire rock stars they're a BIG target. I guess if they sucked we'd all want them to get the whole book thrown at them. But they were damn good, and they went beyond the blues and created some of the greatest music ever written/recorded.

Scott Bails
12-10-2012, 11:00 AM
It's not so much lynch mob as just trying to understand why gregory won't accept that Page plagiarized. It's established fact.

Zeppelin's success is completely irrelevant.

Vic2012
12-10-2012, 11:15 AM
Zeppelin's success is completely irrelevant.

Not sure I buy that, but whatever. I'll admit this though. I won't defend plagiarism but I really love this band, so it might look like I'm defending them. For me, this (LZ plagiarizing) will not be their lasting legacy. To many it will though.

Jerjo
12-10-2012, 12:10 PM
I have been on quite a few forums over the years and only PE and one other one get their panties in a twist about this issue regarding Zep. I think it was deplorable that Grant and Page didn't give credit where credit was due but jebus on a Popsicle stick, it's a handful of songs on the first few albums. Get fucking over it.

ronmac
12-10-2012, 12:37 PM
He (Dixon) should be flattered that his tune was taken to rock stardom.

So, let me see if I have this right. Dixon should be flattered by somebody taking his art, making money off of it and not giving him credit?

-=RTFR666=-
02-26-2016, 03:08 PM
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/plagiarism-lawsuit-jimmy-page-describes-869928

Jubal
02-26-2016, 07:02 PM
Zeppelin played Spirit's Fresh Garbage in their early shows. You can hear it on bootlegs. No fucking way is Stairway's resemblance to Taurus a coincidence.
No it isn't. But there is not enough song structure there to qualify as plagiarism. Perhaps Jimmy was fascinated with the A minor arpeggio, but he took the arpeggios much further and wrote a helluva lot more into that song than was ever on Taurus.

rcarlberg
02-26-2016, 07:13 PM
"I had not previously seen it in my collection and do not know how or when it got there," states Page. "It may well have been left by a guest. I doubt it was there for long, since I never noticed it before. But, again, I know I did not hear Taurus until 2014."
Zeppelin played Spirit's Fresh Garbage in their early shows. You can hear it on bootlegs. No fucking way is Stairway's resemblance to Taurus a coincidence.Jimmy, your fly's down.

Reid
02-26-2016, 10:36 PM
Black Waterside - Page added some tablas to give it an eastern flavor. Then Steve Tibbetts picked up on that style and took it to another level. Made a career out of it!

rcarlberg
02-26-2016, 10:41 PM
There's nothing new under the sun.

But... most artists don't claim writing credits on covers.

rapidfirerob
02-27-2016, 04:36 AM
Plus Page is not a great guitarist IMO.

Jubal
02-27-2016, 08:34 AM
Plus Page is not a great guitarist IMO.
Troll alert!

Sputnik
02-27-2016, 08:39 AM
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/plagiarism-lawsuit-jimmy-page-describes-869928I've largely stayed out of this, having never heard the Spirit song. But I read that article and at the bottom was a link to Taurus, so what the hell, I gave it a listen.

I'm stunned this is even an issue. If I had a nickel for every song that had that progression in it, I'd be rich. It is literally a musical cliche' used by countless musicians. Jimmy Page might as well sue Jim Croce for Time in a Bottle, because it bears just as much similarity to Stairway to Heaven as Taurus does. I know Zeppelin had their penchant for nicking stuff, but even if Taurus was an inspiration to Page (which there's no direct evidence it was), the brief similarity in that one small part hardly constitutes plagiarism in my mind. The progressions develop and resolve in totally different ways, and that part is far too brief in Taurus to rise to a level where the substance of the song is being lifted. I'd be shocked and amazed if this went anywhere.

Bill

Jubal
02-27-2016, 08:47 AM
Taurus is a no go for plagiarism. Many of the other examples cited- definitely. I agree he should pay them for songwriting royalties PLUS interest lost during that time.

Sputnik
02-27-2016, 08:55 AM
I agree he should pay them for songwriting royalties PLUS interest lost during that time.I don't agree. Were I Page/Zeppelin, I'd ask for summary dismissal, just as they have done. I just don't find any substance to the claim. Cameron got summary judgment against Dean for his floating islands, which was far more egregious to me than the brief similarity of a commonly used musical trope in these two song. We'll see how it goes.

Bill

Plasmatopia
02-27-2016, 09:15 AM
It would be ironic if this case was the one LZ was successfully sued for.


Sent Via PE's Mobile App

Sputnik
02-27-2016, 09:41 AM
It would be ironic if this case was the one LZ was successfully sued for.It's my understanding that Zeppelin has either been sued successfully or has come to terms with a number of artists where they very clearly used material in violation of copyright. I think more recent versions of Zeppelin albums now even contain writing credits for a lot of these artists. In most/all of those cases, I think think that was the right thing, because they were directly lifting large chunks of songs, often with lyrics. The Lemon song is a good example, pretty much a direct lift of Howlin' wolf's killing Floor. I believe many, if not all of cases like that have been addressed, and rightfully so, imo.

The Spirit/Taurus issue seems quite different to me. Even if the Spirit song was an inspiration to Page, I don't think there's enough similarity with the song at large to justify a writing credit. I think the family is using the history of other artists getting awards from Zeppelin as a precedent, and are hoping for some kind of settlement and some quick cash.

Bill

bob_32_116
02-27-2016, 10:10 AM
Since LZ have been sued successfully in the past, this whole Spirit/Taurus thing has a kind of "me too" ring about it. "Hey, maybe there's money to be had here, I want a bit of that action!"

Not referring to anyone here, but I think many people who say "THIS sounds like THAT" think so because of their limited understanding of and exposure to music. Not just the music coming over the airwaved in 2016, but a wide range of music from many eras. Very often, THIS sounds like THAT to them simply because THIS and THAT borrow a motif that's also been borrowed many times byt others. It would do them good to listen to episode 2 of Howard Goodall's "Story of Music".

Plasmatopia
02-27-2016, 11:01 AM
It's my understanding that Zeppelin has either been sued successfully or has come to terms with a number of artists where they very clearly used material in violation of copyright. I think more recent versions of Zeppelin albums now even contain writing credits for a lot of these artists. In most/all of those cases, I think think that was the right thing, because they were directly lifting large chunks of songs, often with lyrics. The Lemon song is a good example, pretty much a direct lift of Howlin' wolf's killing Floor. I believe many, if not all of cases like that have been addressed, and rightfully so, imo.

The Spirit/Taurus issue seems quite different to me. Even if the Spirit song was an inspiration to Page, I don't think there's enough similarity with the song at large to justify a writing credit. I think the family is using the history of other artists getting awards from Zeppelin as a precedent, and are hoping for some kind of settlement and some quick cash.

Bill

Ah! My bad, but in my defense I hear a lot of talk that would indicate no such settlements occurred...commentary that would indicate the similarities to other artists work was still up for debate.



Sent Via PE's Mobile App

Sputnik
02-27-2016, 12:34 PM
Since LZ have been sued successfully in the past, this whole Spirit/Taurus thing has a kind of "me too" ring about it. "Hey, maybe there's money to be had here, I want a bit of that action!"

Not referring to anyone here, but I think many people who say "THIS sounds like THAT" think so because of their limited understanding of and exposure to music. Not just the music coming over the airwaved in 2016, but a wide range of music from many eras. Very often, THIS sounds like THAT to them simply because THIS and THAT borrow a motif that's also been borrowed many times byt others. It would do them good to listen to episode 2 of Howard Goodall's "Story of Music".I agree with both of your points here, particularly the first.


Ah! My bad, but in my defense I hear a lot of talk that would indicate no such settlements occurred...commentary that would indicate the similarities to other artists work was still up for debate.No need to defend yourself. :) I think you're largely right, most don't know anything about this issue. Part of this I think is due to the issues being solved by mutual agreement rather than messy and high-profile court cases. Zeppelin, begrudgingly perhaps, has eventually acknowledged the most egregious issues, and have done so in a way to keep the profile at a minimum.

The Taurus issue they are approaching differently, which leads me to believe what Plant and Page are saying is true, that in this case there was nothing lifted, particularly from Taurus. My ears tell me the same thing, even if Page was perhaps inspired by that descending chordal pattern (which I actually don't believe he was). So here, it wouldn't surprise me to see them fight it all the way, because I think the case is extremely weak, and I think is motivated by what Bob said, "Hey, maybe there's money to be had here, I want a bit of that action!"

Bill

bob_32_116
02-27-2016, 12:49 PM
If the inspiration, or plagiarism, or whatever we call it, is about those descending chords that begin each line of the main verses, then I've heard that same chord progression in many songs, dating from at least as early as 1965. There was a song called "Sad Dark Eyes" by Australian band MPD Ltd that used this progression, and I'm sure they didn't invent it.

In other words, what I said in my previous post.

Plasmatopia
02-27-2016, 12:51 PM
The Taurus issue they are approaching differently, which leads me to believe what Plant and Page are saying is true, that in this case there was nothing lifted, particularly from Taurus. My ears tell me the same thing, even if Page was perhaps inspired by that descending chordal pattern (which I actually don't believe he was). So here, it wouldn't surprise me to see them fight it all the way, because I think the case is extremely weak, and I think is motivated by what Bob said, "Hey, maybe there's money to be had here, I want a bit of that action!"

Bill

That does seem to be the case.

rapidfirerob
02-27-2016, 10:21 PM
Troll alert!

Not at all. Jeff Beck has continually improved. Page was and is a pedestrian guitarist, for me. I loved Led Zeppelin, but never found his playing to be remarkable.
YMMV, of course. I'll leave his stealing music to others.

rcarlberg
07-11-2016, 07:36 PM
https://youtu.be/tiiY4ciKFQA

klothos
07-11-2016, 08:57 PM
Not at all. Jeff Beck has continually improved.

+1...He continually reinvents his playing


Page was and is a pedestrian guitarist, for me. I loved Led Zeppelin, but never found his playing to be remarkable.
YMMV, of course.

another +1....Page is "Legendary" but he is not a "Great", and those two terms can be mutually exclusive but are often substituted for one another....Page was a mediocre player at best, with a very sloppy delivery ( I always thought his acoustic work was far better than his electric work) but he had the luxury of having a very phat grooving rhythm section to play against, which often made him sound better than what he was.......

Enid
07-12-2016, 10:32 PM
Many years ago....probably through the press....and with a certain journalist,,,,there was a short but interesting paragraph on Sandy Denny and Jimmy Page ....and how they met and became friends. The article told of them going to art school together and having a common interest in the occult. Here I am....a 16 year old kid in the early 70's reading this and believing every word of it. Strange that I've never ran across that article again and odd that I could not locate it on the internet. When I was at that age...I was listening to Fairport Convention, Pentangle and Steeleye Span. I used to think that maybe Sandy Denny introduced Page to those fine Folk guitarists in England and that Bert Jansch could have possibly taught the basis of "Black Mountainside" to Page even prior to him joining The Yardbirds. But the basis of "Black Mountainside" was traditional anyway and it's tuning , it's trills/hammer-on's, structure of bass line and melody had been played on guitar and other string instruments a century or more before Bert Jansch was born. Just as a piece titled "Spanish Ballad" is learned and performed in the U.S. and of course designed perfectly on manuscript paper, it had been played on streets in Sicily for a century or two and without manuscript paper. It was a piece that had been cemented into their culture and conceived differently in their minds obviously than knowing it as a piece for a study/learning process in a university. Page was a very good acoustic player. I don't know for sure, but suspect that he had already studied traditional Folk guitar styles before meeting Sandy Denny. Maybe when he was in the same circle with her...he learned a few things?? David Cousins confirmed with me that Page and Denny were close in Art School and that they were both interested in witchcraft. That was over 30 years ago when I discussed it briefly with him at a gig. This could all be summed up as gossip or dog doo...but more importantly it raises an interest beyond all laughable things. They both seemed to inject a mysterious vibe in their writing. Clearly they were both fine writers who were interested in the spirit world. I believe they were both interested in the occult ...but I also believe that the press for years to come....would have a field day with that.

JeffCarney
07-12-2016, 10:43 PM
Many years ago....probably through the press....and with a certain journalist,,,,there was a short but interesting paragraph on Sandy Denny and Jimmy Page ....and how they met and became friends. The article told of them going to art school together and having a common interest in the occult. Here I am....a 16 year old kid in the early 70's reading this and believing every word of it. Strange that I've never ran across that article again and odd that I could not locate it on the internet. When I was at that age...I was listening to Fairport Convention, Pentangle and Steeleye Span. I used to think that maybe Sandy Denny introduced Page to those fine Folk guitarists in England and that Bert Jansch could have possibly taught the basis of "Black Mountainside" to Page even prior to him joining The Yardbirds. But the basis of "Black Mountainside" was traditional anyway and it's tuning , it's trills/hammer-on's, structure of bass line and melody had been played on guitar and other string instruments a century or more before Bert Jansch was born. Just as a piece titled "Spanish Ballad" is learned and performed in the U.S. and of course designed perfectly on manuscript paper, it had been played on streets in Sicily for a century or two and without manuscript paper. It was a piece that had been cemented into their culture and conceived differently in their minds obviously than knowing it as a piece for a study/learning process in a university. Page was a very good acoustic player. I don't know for sure, but suspect that he had already studied traditional Folk guitar styles before meeting Sandy Denny. Maybe when he was in the same circle with her...he learned a few things?? David Cousins confirmed with me that Page and Denny were close in Art School and that they were both interested in witchcraft. That was over 30 years ago when I discussed it briefly with him at a gig. This could all be summed up as gossip or dog doo...but more importantly it raises an interest beyond all laughable things. They both seemed to inject a mysterious vibe in their writing. Clearly they were both fine writers who were interested in the spirit world. I believe they were both interested in the occult ...but I also believe that the press for years to come....would have a field day with that.

I think you give way too little credit to Jansch's arrangement. It was unique and clearly that's what Page ripped off. Basically, he added a tabla, changed "Water" to "Mountain," played Jansch's arrangement and it was released under the false notion that it was his own composition. It wasn't even listed as Trad: Arrangement Jimmy Page.

Al Stewart originally taught Jansch's arrangement to Page although Stewart had the tuning wrong and Page hence learned it as DADGAD instead of Drop D.

Jansch apparently considered legal action. He decided against it due to the costs involved, but has commented that Page "ripped me off, didn't he? Or let's just say he learned from me."

rcarlberg
07-12-2016, 10:52 PM
All musicians borrow, or in the words of Miles Davis, great musicians steal, but given the massive revenues generated by the LZ machine for twenty years it is unconscionable that Page listed all these compositions as his own work and took all the composing, publishing and mechanical rights for himself. The decent thing to do would have been to share the royalties as well as the credit with all the fabulous musicians who "influenced" Page.

JeffCarney
07-12-2016, 10:59 PM
All musicians borrow, or in the words of Miles Davis, great musicians steal, but given the massive revenues generated by the LZ machine for twenty years it is unconscionable that Page listed all these compositions as his own work and took all the composing, publishing and mechanical rights for himself. The decent thing to do would have been to share the royalties as well as the credit with all the fabulous musicians who "influenced" Page.

If Davis said this, he ripped it off Piccaso.

I don't buy this argument anyway. There is influence, inspiration for one's own ideas and trying to steal someone's else work and take credit for it. To excuse the latter as something that everyone does is a lazy defense of unethical behavior. Not to mention a stereotypical viewpoint of musicians; which cannot possibly be anything but an enormous exaggeration at best.

rcarlberg
07-13-2016, 08:28 AM
True to his nature, Davis borrowed the idea from Pablo Picasso (note the spelling) and made it his own by applying it to music. As we are talking about music here, his citation is germane.

JeffCarney
07-13-2016, 11:19 AM
As we are talking about music here, his citation is germane.

True. Except that I never bought Picasso's line about this in the first place. The greatest artists innovate and avoid consciously "stealing."

Views on stealing from Picasso nor Davis will be able to change the fact that Jimmy Page's career will forever be tarnished in the minds of many. Whether it should be or not is another discussion.

rcarlberg
07-13-2016, 12:16 PM
The greatest artists innovate and avoid consciously "stealing." Yeah but progressive music is kinda known for "borrowing" from other genres -- classical, jazz, Latin, African -- and infusing new music with old influences. I think you could walk a long way and look very hard before finding a musician -- ANY musician -- who was truly original.

JeffCarney
07-13-2016, 12:44 PM
Yeah but progressive music is kinda known for "borrowing" from other genres -- classical, jazz, Latin, African -- and infusing new music with old influences. I think you could walk a long way and look very hard before finding a musician -- ANY musician -- who was truly original.

I think we're sort of talking about different things.

Borrowing from other genres or musical foundations in order to create something of your own is certainly an inherent part of even the most creative musician's process.

To my mind anyway, that greatly differs from taking compositional credit for someone's else's song or specific arrangement.

ronmac
07-13-2016, 01:14 PM
I think we're sort of talking about different things.

Borrowing from other genres or musical foundations in order to create something of your own is certainly an inherent part of even the most creative musician's process.

To my mind anyway, that greatly differs from taking compositional credit for someone's else's song or specific arrangement.

Indeed. There are very few, if any, truly original works in most arts. We all borrow and become inspired by others. Anyone who claims otherwise is probably lying.

Calabasas_Trafalgar
07-13-2016, 02:19 PM
Has anyone mentioned Ritchie Blackmore here? While his thefts might not be as abundant as Page's, he certainly had his fair share; witness his lift of the Blues Magoos on "Black Night" and It's a Beautiful Day on "Child in Time" among others.

JeffCarney
07-13-2016, 03:04 PM
Has anyone mentioned Ritchie Blackmore here? While his thefts might not be as abundant as Page's, he certainly had his fair share; witness his lift of the Blues Magoos on "Black Night" and It's a Beautiful Day on "Child in Time" among others.

No question. Probably the strangest one is how they lifted the idea for "Fireball" from the Canadian band Warpig.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJVSymN0yqM

Adm.Kirk
07-13-2016, 04:08 PM
While I can't remember what song it was now, It's A Beautiful Day stole a song from Deep Purple too.

Bill

JeffCarney
07-13-2016, 05:41 PM
While I can't remember what song it was now, It's A Beautiful Day stole a song from Deep Purple too.


Correct. As "payback," they lifted Purple's "Wring That Neck" and used it for "Don And Dewey."

klothos
07-13-2016, 06:00 PM
All musicians borrow, or in the words of Miles Davis, great musicians steal,

and Miles paraphrased that quote from Igor Sravinsky...... a double entendre! :D

Halmyre
07-14-2016, 02:27 PM
Has anyone mentioned Ritchie Blackmore here? While his thefts might not be as abundant as Page's, he certainly had his fair share; witness his lift of the Blues Magoos on "Black Night" and It's a Beautiful Day on "Child in Time" among others.

Roger Glover says Black Night was pinched from Ricky Nelson's "Summertime".

Scrotum Scissor
07-14-2016, 02:50 PM
Spirit thing doesn't impress. While LZ thing is a masterpiece. What a cruel world, right?

Spirit vs. LZ: 11 - 3.

*VERY* cruel world once you have decided on how to feel about the obvious.

JeffCarney
07-14-2016, 08:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc


Learn what?)) Jimmy played this tune with Yardbirds and with Jake Holmes on vocals.

I know you said this a long time ago, but ...

:huh




And any LZ interpretation of this was by a long shot better.

So if I steal money from you and buy a nice car with it, that's okay with you?

grego
07-17-2016, 06:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc



I know you said this a long time ago, but ...

:huh




So if I steal money from you and buy a nice car with it, that's okay with you?
Interpretation is not theft, it is original idea, a different view on known material. Why do you raise money question, talking of music? If Holmes wanted more money for his thing, was it very easy to do for him? Have you ever read the name Jake Holmes, outside of LZ context? I think if not them, the musical world would never notice his name. But now people speak of Holmes quite compassionately, only due to the whim of better artist.

JJ88
07-17-2016, 06:30 PM
So it doesn't matter when you haven't heard of the guy anyway. Right. BTW, Jake Holmes co-wrote albums recorded by artists of the calibre of Frank Sinatra and The Four Seasons.

The Led Zeppelin one changed quite a bit from The Yardbirds' one.

JeffCarney
07-17-2016, 06:59 PM
Interpretation is not theft, it is original idea, a different view on known material. Why do you raise money question, talking of music? If Holmes wanted more money for his thing, was it very easy to do for him? Have you ever read the name Jake Holmes, outside of LZ context? I think if not them, the musical world would never notice his name. But now people speak of Holmes quite compassionately, only due to the whim of better artist.

Let's just hope you aren't sill of the belief that Jimmy Page "played this song in The Yardbirds with Jake Holmes."

As for the rest of this diatribe, I find it a bit disturbing, tbh.

Let's assume that your premise is correct; Jake Holmes became more known after Led Zeppelin covered his song without crediting him. What does this have to do with the unethical practice of not crediting an original writer of a composition? And whether that artist is a household name or a guy on the street playing for three people seems well removed from the point, IMO.

In fact, in this case, I'd say it really backfired on Led Zeppelin. "Dazed and Confused" could be considered one of the most adventurous cover songs ever done by a rock band. Instead, it will now forever be tainted as a stolen song. And it really is more than that, but the dishonesty will now outweigh what was done with the material for many listeners.

Your argument almost seems to be that Jake Holmes should be "glad" that he was so lucky to have such a legendary, popular rock group like Led Zeppelin steal his song. :huh

Do you find it impossible to appreciate Led Zeppelin without excusing them from "rights and wrongs" that most people were taught as small children?

Calabasas_Trafalgar
07-19-2016, 09:48 AM
Spirit vs. LZ: 11 - 3.

*VERY* cruel world once you have decided on how to feel about the obvious.

I listened to "Taurus" the other day. It sounds like "Stairway..." - for about 10 seconds. The biggest problem I have with this is that the jury were not allowed to listen for themselves. They only got to see sheet music. What %age of the jury can read music? Not very high, I'm guessing.

notallwhowander
07-19-2016, 11:06 AM
So Zeppelin, including Grant on this, came in as pirates. They moved fast, took what they wanted, and didn't think too much about others or possible complications down the road. They lived high on the hog, the rock'n'roll dream, for as long as they could. When any of the "grown ups" from the record label (no less piratical then Zep themselves) told them not to worry about, the lawyers will sort it out, they did exactly that.

Am I wrong in thinking that this kind of life without restraint was part of what Zeppelin was lionized for, back in the day?

There continues to be a kind of outlaw romance associated with rock'n'roll. So acting outside the law is rather baked into becoming some sort of rock'n'roll legend. Why would legal disregard begin with drugs, property damage, and statutory rape, but somehow end with copyright? What I'm trying to say is that these were young guys making bad choices from the get-go, and were being richly rewarded for it. It was all part of the rock'n'roll ethos of the time, and mystique of the band. It is no less reprehensible, mind you. However, taking credit for others work has go to be just one in a long line of regrets each surviving member carries with him.

rcarlberg
07-19-2016, 06:28 PM
The difference, I would surmise, is that the boys in Led Zeppelin had no respect for groupies, no respect for the record industry, no respect for the crappy motel rooms they stayed in, no respect for their audience of fanboys.

The DID have respect, however -- at least they said they did -- for the blues legends they so shamelessly ripped off and claimed their music as their own.

notallwhowander
07-19-2016, 08:16 PM
The difference, I would surmise, is that the boys in Led Zeppelin had no respect for groupies, no respect for the record industry, no respect for the crappy motel rooms they stayed in, no respect for their audience of fanboys.

The DID have respect, however -- at least they said they did -- for the blues legends they so shamelessly ripped off and claimed their music as their own.

It's ridiculous to talk in such categorical terms. They put out a solid body of work, album after album. The lyrics of their songs reflected some level of respect and intelligence. When they had their shit together, they put on amazing shows. However, they weren't role models of having one's shit together. They were role models of an entirely different, decadent, stripe. Like anything the band was a mixed bag, with highs and lows, and the lows are pretty reprehensible, the highs are pretty amazing. I think Hunter S. Thompson well captured the spirit of the times: "The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."

rcarlberg
07-20-2016, 10:45 PM
I don't think it's ridiculous. I think you're apologizing for their bad behavior.

The Hunter S. Thompson connection seems apt though.

notallwhowander
07-20-2016, 11:16 PM
Not apologizing, I'm just trying to put it into context.

While there were times they had no respect for this or that, there were times when they did. There's no purity either way. That's all.